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Re: Is there any place to talk about language features?

From BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Is there any place to talk about language features?
Date 2016-10-03 12:43 -0500
Organization albasani.net
Message-ID <nsu5ba$9rd$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <e52qkaF40dfU1@mid.individual.net> <e5ek9rFs9kpU1@mid.individual.net> <nstgap$hu3$1@dont-email.me> <35ec6287-7c8c-429f-931b-c5691b64cc9d@googlegroups.com> <nsti9v$ola$1@dont-email.me>

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On 10/3/2016 7:18 AM, BartC wrote:
> On 03/10/2016 12:56, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 12:44:47 PM UTC+1, James Kuyper wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2016 04:47 AM, Robert Latest wrote:
>>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>>> I do find the
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> syntax very useful in C++ and adding it to C wouldn't break any
>>>>> existing
>>>>> code.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with adding new features to any language is not about
>>>> breaking
>>>> existing code. It's about breaking existing compilers. For C, there
>>>> is a
>>>> plethora of compilers out there, many still used for embedded
>>>> systems where
>>>> support ceased decades ago. Suppose someone were starting to learn
>>>> "C with
>>>> features" down the road, only to find that the system they're targeting
>>>> doesn't support these features? If I had a job teaching (or writing
>>>> books
>>>> about) C, I'd teach C89, giving my students the widest possible base
>>>> for
>>>> future jobs (at the expense of a few inconveniences).
>>>
>>> Then it doesn't matter what features get added to future versions of the
>>> standard, those compilers will never conform with the new versions, and
>>> people following your advice will never use the new features - so how
>>> would those compilers be broken by such changes to the C standard? How
>>> would such programmers be inconvenienced by those changes? Keep in mind
>>> that we're talking about additions that "wouldn't break any existing
>>> code" - so the fact that they might need to compile their code with a
>>> more up-to-date compiler isn't a problem.
>>>
>> In an sense that's true. Once a language is out and into the wild, the
>> set of
>> acceptable programs can only get narrower, until all of the legacy
>> systems
>> are so far out of date they can be ignored. But if one of the legacy
>> systems
>> is Microsoft Windows, there's no way anyone writing general-purpose
>> hosted
>> code can say that platform can be ignored.
>>
>> But it's not psychological reality to refrain from using new features
>> until all
>> the old systems are gone. So new versions create a situation where code
>> compiles in some places, not others, where people don't realise they are
>> using features which may not be supported elsewhere.
>
> The reality with a lot of C software is that it won't compile anyway
> unless:
>
> * You're using gcc
>
> * You're using the right 'make'
>
> * You're using exactly the right set of compiler attributes and
>   command-line options (which make it harder to use any other
>   compiler)
>
> * You're compiling under Unix or have imported half the Unix
>   eco-system so that you now depend on a dozen other utilities.
>

I have recently dealt with a project which (sort of) builds on Linux, 
but fails to build (without tweaking) on WS4L, because NTFS doesn't 
implement some obscure behaviors from Linux/EXTn and similar.

meanwhile, Windows is like, "no, I won't allow you to delete a directory 
which contains files which are currently still open" (whereas on Linux, 
the files will poof into nonexistence once closed).

if lucky, one might encounter projects which internally use 
sudo/mount/... as part of their build process, or download/patch/compile 
a specific version of GCC (to compile other parts of the project, or to 
make a special-purpose cross-compiler), ...

would be nice if people were basing these on something a little smaller, 
say, using LCC or something, for their one-off cross-compilers (or maybe 
split the download/rebuild GCC part into a separate shell-script from 
the main project build, so you don't need to go through this part if the 
cross-compiler is already built...).


but, generally, I try to write my code to be "moderately portable", 
using a feature set limited mostly to the combinations of targets I care 
about the code running on.

I had one thing some-odd years ago where at one point I had almost 
backed myself into a corner (depending on too much that was specific to 
32-bit x86), but have since tried to write code where the core is fairly 
portable, mostly falling back to OS and HW specific stuff for special 
cases (so code can be reasonably fast/capable on known targets, but 
things aren't SOL on unknown targets).


some more fundamental assumptions exist, for example, the approximate 
amount of memory/address-space available.

say, one has several 32-bit targets:
one has up to 2GB of usable address space, can be casual as 
virtual-memory will mostly take care of it;
another has 64kB of physically-mapped RAM (and 256kB ROM);
another has 256kB of physically-mapped RAM (and 2MB ROM);
and an intermediate has 8MB of physically-mapped RAM (with the program 
running from RAM, ROM space mostly used as a filesystem).

code naively written to work on one of these will not work on the others.


memory handling will be different, and code may have things in it like:
   GPIO_SET=0x13;	//turn some pins on
where off in a header, we have something like, say (not real addr's):
   #define GPIO_GET (*(volatile unsigned int *)0xAC080004)
   #define GPIO_SET (*(volatile unsigned int *)0xAC080008)

one might also casually encounter a custom malloc implementation using 
hard-coded address ranges or similar (because, the code was written for 
a target with neither malloc nor an OS), ...

and, things like console-handling is done via hard-coded memory-mapped 
registers for a serial UART interface.

so, this part isn't really going to work correctly on a normal PC...


a moderate approach exists, where one can target various targets via the 
use of #ifdef, while ignoring issues outside the scope of where it may run.

for the most part this means using a C dialect partway between C95 and 
C99, and avoiding too much dependence on compiler-specific features 
(they can be nice, but generally need similar treatment to 
hardware/target specific features).


or such...

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Thread

Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 09:35 -0700
  Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 09:39 -0700
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 09:46 -0700
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-28 17:53 +0100
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-28 21:21 +0200
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-28 20:36 +0100
        Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 13:55 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:02 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:03 +1300
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:13 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:22 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-03 08:47 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-03 07:44 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 04:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 13:18 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 12:43 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-03 21:43 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2016-10-03 22:28 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 04:51 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 13:10 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 05:48 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 14:03 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-03 14:24 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 07:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-03 19:16 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 07:16 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 07:45 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 07:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-03 08:21 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 05:31 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 06:43 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-03 15:08 +0200
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:22 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 15:16 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 16:08 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 16:57 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 14:19 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:50 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 17:03 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-29 01:08 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 17:33 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2016-09-29 01:02 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 01:39 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-29 00:48 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 11:59 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 08:09 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 12:14 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 09:07 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 13:53 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 22:13 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-01 09:36 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-01 13:04 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-30 14:20 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-30 22:30 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-10-02 07:30 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 01:51 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 10:31 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 23:22 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 06:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 15:28 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 10:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 19:52 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-02 20:38 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-02 03:37 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 08:35 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-02 15:17 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 18:29 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 01:09 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-04 08:21 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 13:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 14:34 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-04 00:47 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-04 07:49 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-04 07:50 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-04 08:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-04 10:42 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 15:47 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-04 20:58 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 18:14 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 02:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 22:44 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 03:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:38 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 19:50 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 16:25 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 21:19 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 18:11 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 06:38 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-06 00:36 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 07:33 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-06 09:00 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-07 00:32 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 05:05 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-07 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-07 00:20 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 17:01 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-10-05 12:45 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 11:12 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 03:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 14:41 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 08:01 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 08:41 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 10:29 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 12:29 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 11:08 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 14:35 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 18:15 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 10:38 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 19:14 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 11:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 11:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-05 12:18 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-05 21:49 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 13:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-05 16:23 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-06 14:26 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 13:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-06 14:17 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-06 15:53 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-06 09:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-06 11:28 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:31 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:32 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 19:43 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 16:05 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-10-02 07:24 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-30 16:17 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-01 09:39 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-01 14:11 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 07:47 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:25 -0700
  Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-28 12:59 -0400
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 12:10 -0700
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 20:20 +0100

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