Re: Is there any place to talk about language features?

From	BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is there any place to talk about language features?
Date	2016-09-29 01:39 -0500
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<nsicve$s6j$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <ln7f9vsowr.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <5b93213c-4a2a-442d-96ca-c79bd09ed470@googlegroups.com> <nshm21$9o2$1@dont-email.me> <da4e1d81-2bea-4129-9c09-e0f4cd5c15d3@googlegroups.com> <nshp7i$722$1@news.albasani.net>

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On 9/28/2016 8:02 PM, Melzzzzz wrote:
> On 2016-09-29, Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 9:08:52 PM UTC-3, Bart wrote:
>
>>>> _Call Destructor(&z);
>>>
>>> Is this stuff already in C++?  If so, why not just use that?
>>>
>>
>> I think C++ has a lot conceptual problems and they are trying to fix
>> version after version.  The language became too complex after C++11.
>>
>> C still clean.
>
> Let's keep it that way...
>

FWIW: it is sometimes useful to distinguish between "the core thing" and 
"the thing with lots of extensions".

a problem with C++ is that it doesn't really distinguish, so the 
language grows out of control.

with C, it is much more of a thing to have the compilers and operating 
systems define a lot more of the language and its APIs.

for example, in one certain environment one has:
   LPCSTR, LPCTSTR, LPCWSTR, ... BYTE, WORD, DWORD, ...
and functions:
   GetProcAddress, VirtualAlloc, CreateFileMapping, ...

another system might do stuff like "pcuchar", "pcwchar", ...
and, an OS might export: dlsym, mmap, ...

and in others, it is pretty much bare metal:
one may or may not even get all the normal language features, but 
instead need to fallback to writing functions in assembler to implement 
some operations (if not provided by a utility library).

one may then end up needing to do their shift operators, 
multiplication/division, ... using internal function calls which 
implement these features in software.

so, probably sane to leave the core a little minimalist and vague, and 
then let implementations define how things are going to be.

possibly nice would be if there were "profiles" to define rules and 
behavior for common ranges of targets. though, partly this is also to 
fight back against "language lawyering" on the part of compiler writers, 
by better nailing down what the "commonly expected observable behavior" 
should be (as opposed to "whatever the compiler writer finds most 
convenient").

different sets of rules would then be defined for different categories 
of targets (or for specific formats).

this isn't to say that compiler writers can't optimize, but rather, that 
their optimizations should not change observable behavior relative to 
the rules that are specified for that target (even if the standard 
proper is a little more open, and allows interpretations which go 
against established behaviors, or in cases where a behavior is 
technically UB, but tended to behave in a certain way on the target, 
which the existing codebase tended to rely on).

because, breaking existing code and expecting people to go rewrite their 
to follow the compiler writers' sensibilities isn't exactly ideal.

or such...

Thread

Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 09:35 -0700
  Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 09:39 -0700
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 09:46 -0700
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-28 17:53 +0100
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-28 21:21 +0200
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-28 20:36 +0100
        Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 13:55 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:02 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:03 +1300
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:13 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:22 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-03 08:47 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-03 07:44 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 04:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 13:18 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 12:43 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-03 21:43 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2016-10-03 22:28 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 04:51 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 13:10 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 05:48 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 14:03 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-03 14:24 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 07:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-03 19:16 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 07:16 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 07:45 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 07:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-03 08:21 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 05:31 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 06:43 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-03 15:08 +0200
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:22 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 15:16 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 16:08 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 16:57 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 14:19 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:50 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 17:03 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-29 01:08 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 17:33 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2016-09-29 01:02 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 01:39 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-29 00:48 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 11:59 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 08:09 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 12:14 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 09:07 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 13:53 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 22:13 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-01 09:36 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-01 13:04 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-30 14:20 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-30 22:30 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-10-02 07:30 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 01:51 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 10:31 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 23:22 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 06:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 15:28 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 10:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 19:52 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-02 20:38 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-02 03:37 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 08:35 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-02 15:17 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 18:29 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 01:09 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-04 08:21 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 13:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 14:34 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-04 00:47 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-04 07:49 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-04 07:50 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-04 08:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-04 10:42 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 15:47 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-04 20:58 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 18:14 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 02:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 22:44 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 03:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:38 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 19:50 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 16:25 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 21:19 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 18:11 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 06:38 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-06 00:36 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 07:33 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-06 09:00 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-07 00:32 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 05:05 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-07 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-07 00:20 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 17:01 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-10-05 12:45 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 11:12 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 03:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 14:41 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 08:01 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 08:41 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 10:29 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 12:29 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 11:08 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 14:35 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 18:15 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 10:38 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 19:14 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 11:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 11:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-05 12:18 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-05 21:49 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 13:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-05 16:23 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-06 14:26 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 13:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-06 14:17 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-06 15:53 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-06 09:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-06 11:28 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:31 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:32 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 19:43 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 16:05 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-10-02 07:24 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-30 16:17 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-01 09:39 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-01 14:11 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 07:47 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:25 -0700
  Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-28 12:59 -0400
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 12:10 -0700
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 20:20 +0100

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