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Re: OKAD?

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On 9/9/2016 6:33 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> Do you know what process it is developed for?
>
> It's been used with a bunch, going back to the F21.  The GA processors
> were made in both 180nm and 130nm.
>
> There have been a few other threads about OKAD and the 500LOC is not the
> whole package, but rather some (important) part, or maybe the part in
> memory at a given moment.  I remember reading that the program was
> around 250KB but it was in overlays so not much was being run at any
> moment.
>
> Its capabilities seemed comparable to 1980s-era tools like Caesar.
> You'd hand-layout gates etc. on "tiles" and place tiles by hand, and the
> tool did some DRC and timing simulation iirc.  Lots of chips including
> (small by today's standards) microprocessors were made that way back
> then.  At higher complexity (like we see now) it may be less manageable.
>
>> I recall reading that he didn't use the standard models for
>> transistors and developed his own. The claim was made that it showed
>> Spice to be "wrong" whatever that means.
>
> The claim was that OKAD modelled transistor temperature and SPICE
> didn't.  But SPICE is definitely capable of doing that.
>
> I don't think the code was ever released.  I hope they do release it
> since it doesn't seem to have all that much commercial value these days,
> and it would be interesting to look at a large Colorforth program.

I recall the specific claim by Jeff Fox that these tools showed spice 
was "broken" or "wrong".  I think they were using some boundary 
conditions of their transistors that were not used in conventional 
designs and so might not simulate properly by spice, but I don't know 
for sure.  I *do* know that while it was claimed this tool allowed them 
to design much faster transistors, spice is not "broken".  It's a tool 
equivalent to a spread sheet.  It's up to the user to use it correctly 
with valid models, etc.

-- 

Rick C

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OKAD? Mux <Yvo.Zoer@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 15:07 -0700
  Re: OKAD? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-22 15:31 -0700
  Re: OKAD? Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2016-08-23 01:45 +0200
    Re: OKAD? Mux <Yvo.Zoer@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 13:55 -0700
  Re: OKAD? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-09 00:18 -0700
    Re: OKAD? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-09 02:47 -0700
      Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-09 11:52 -0400
        Re: OKAD? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-09 10:22 -0700
        Re: OKAD? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-09-09 14:57 -0700
          Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-09 18:02 -0400
            Re: OKAD? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-09 15:33 -0700
              Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-10 01:55 -0400
              Re: OKAD? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-09-09 23:36 -0700
                Re: OKAD? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2016-09-12 13:48 -0700
                Re: OKAD? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-12 14:17 -0700
                Re: OKAD? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-09-13 00:01 +0100
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 14:54 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-09-14 08:50 +0100
                Re: OKAD? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-14 01:15 -0700
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 05:08 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-14 02:14 -0700
                Re: OKAD? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-09-14 10:33 +0100
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 05:55 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-09-14 11:33 +0100
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 13:18 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-09-14 21:02 +0100
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 17:20 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2016-09-15 10:54 -0700
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 17:28 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2016-09-16 10:38 -0700
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-17 17:05 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2016-09-21 13:42 -0700
                Re: OKAD? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-09-21 18:03 -0400
                Re: OKAD? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2016-09-23 13:21 -0700
    Re: OKAD? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-09 14:01 +0200
      Re: OKAD? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-09 04:57 -0700
  Re: OKAD? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-09-13 09:18 -0700
    Re: OKAD? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-13 10:09 -0700
      Re: OKAD? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-09-16 17:24 -0700
        Re: OKAD? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-17 02:38 -0700

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