Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c > #91938

Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language
Date 2016-08-08 12:15 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <no9m3k$3fq$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <no2iu3$ni3$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> <0e92fa13-208f-4c17-93de-ad5d4a066ee2@googlegroups.com> <no2pd2$f01$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> <no7ikt$2np$1@dont-email.me> <no8nm5$od5$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org>

Show all headers | View raw

Note:

I know Jerry will respond by swearing, insulting, denying, etc.  I was
genuinely interested to hear if he knew something about CHAR_BIT != 8
microcontrollers or DSPs that I didn't know, but it seems not to be the
case.  (I do know that such devices exist, and that there are new ones
developed all the time - I know someone who writes C compilers for that
sort of thing.  But they don't make up 90% of the devices around us.)

But it is possible that there are others here who are curious about
embedded systems, which is why I bother responding.

On 08/08/16 03:36, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 8/7/2016 11:03 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 05/08/16 21:28, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 8/5/2016 2:24 PM, supercat@casperkitty.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 12:38:22 PM UTC-5, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>> I'm not sure which DSP chips you're working with, but more and more
>>>>> consumer electronics are using CHAR_BIT of 10, 12 and even 14 or more.
>>>>> People are wanting better audio quality than is available in 8 bit
>>>>> chips, even in automobile electronics.  And not only that, but places
>>>>> where audio quality is not so much of a concern are using wider chips
>>>>> because they can do more signal processing.
>>>>
>>>> Can you name even one remotely-popular chip which has CHAR_BIT value of
>>>> anything other than 8 or 16?  I'd be interested in seeing the data sheet
>>>> for such a thing if you can give me a link.  I recall a DSP some years
>>>> back that used 24-bit words, but going to 32 bits offers so many
>>>> advantages
>>>> for a small increase in cost I'd be surprised if anyone is making any
>>>> new
>>>> 24-bit designs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not something I work on, so I don't know exact chip numbers.  But I
>>> do know of engineers which do. And I think they know what they're
>>> talking about.
>>>
>>> One product I know of is the Toshiba IK-6410A camera.  I don't know
>>> which chip it uses, but it does use a 10 bit DSP.
>>>
>>> And going to a 32 bit processor requires at least a 4 layer, and often 5
>>> or six layer board.  That is a significant increase in cost over a two
>>> layer (top/bottom) board which can be used in many 10 and 12 bit DSPs.
>>> The extra cost adds up and is unnecessary when all you need is 10 or 12
>>> bits.  Additionally, it adds size to the board, which can also be
>>> important (and more costly).  Finally, power consumption is higher.
>>>
>>
>> That sounds to me like you have only the vaguest general idea what you
>> are talking about.
>>
> 
> A hell of a lot more than you do, as has been proven before.  But then
> you have already shown you will never admit you are wrong.
> 
>> Yes, larger and more complex chips often require more layers on the
>> board.  Yes, extra layers usually (but certainly not always) means
>> slightly higher costs.
>>
> 
> More than slightly higher costs.  Management will look at any
> possibility of saving even $0.02 per board.  Because that is pure profit.

Management may look at a saving of $0.02 per board - /if/ the quantities
are high enough.  And for many products, especially such price sensitive
ones, the time to market is critical.  Development costs, and especially
development time, also play a part in such decisions.

Squeezing a design to as few layers as possible can save money in the
PCB, but add other costs.  It can mean more components needed in order
to fulfil EMC (emitted electromagnetic radiation, and susceptibility to
incoming electromagnetic interference) requirements.  It can mean more
noise on the board, and thus lower performance - or more expensive
components to compensate.  It can mean smaller tracks and via holes -
the tighter tolerances increase manufacturing costs, and may reduce
reliability.  It can mean poorer cooling on the board (a nice solid
ground plane is a very useful heat spreader - you rarely get this with 2
layer boards).  And so on.

> 
>> No, 32-bit does not always mean 4 or more layers.  No, using narrow
>> width microcontrollers or DSPs does not always mean 2 layers.  And
>> certainly no, nobody uses "10-bit DSP's" in order to use 2 layer boards
>> instead of 4 layer boards.
>>
> 
> What 32 bit microcontroller doesn't require at least 4 layers?  Some
> examples?  There are just too many pins coming out of the chip set to do
> it with less.

I don't know if this link will work:

<http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/integrated-circuits-ics/embedded-microcontrollers/2556109?k=&pkeyword=&pv16=6547&pv16=6548&pv16=6511&pv16=13248&pv16=6514&pv16=13035&pv16=6526&pv16=13129&pv16=1582&pv16=7221&pv16=6533&pv16=12429&pv16=6534&pv16=67&pv16=13073&pv16=13036&pv16=713&pv16=11423&pv16=13440&pv16=80&pv16=1225&pv16=1773&pv16=11427&pv16=9701&pv16=1005&pv16=11886&FV=fff40027%2Cfff800cd%2Cac40007&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25>

Basically it is a search on Digikey (an electronics supplier) for 32-bit
microcontrollers, limited to packages that could be practically mounted
on a 2 layer board without real challenges.  There are some 1500 devices
listed.  This will include many duplicates with the same device in
different packaging, temperatures, etc.  But it is not hard to find
devices from Atmel, Freescale/NXP, Infineon, Microchip, STM, TI, as well
as smaller manufacturers, with 32-bit cores including AVR32, ARM
(especially M0/M0+, but also M3/M4), Coldfire, and MIPS.

At the most extreme, there is this:

<http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers-and-processors/arm-processors/lpc-cortex-m-mcus/lpc-cortex-m0-plus-m0/lpc800-low-cost-cortex-m0-plus/low-cost-32-bit-microcontroller-mcu-based-on-arm-cortex-m0-plus-core:LPC810M021FN8?fsrch=1&sr=1&pageNum=1>

That is a 32-bit microcontroller in an 8-pin DIP package.  You can use
this by soldering a small 3V button battery between the power supply
legs - no PCB is needed at all.


In the real world of embedded electronics, the number of layers required
for a microcontroller will depend on the number of pins coming out of
it, the density of the package (BGA's need more layers than chips with
legs), the type of signals, requirements for special voltages or
low-noise analogue signals, etc.  There are plenty of 8-bit devices that
need at least 4 layer boards, and plenty of 32-bit devices that are fine
on 2 layer boards.

> 
>> Oh, and no, 32-bit does not necessarily mean higher power consumption,
>> and again, nobody uses 10-bit DSPs to reduce power consumption.
>>
> 
> Once again you show you have no idea what you are talking about.  The
> more bits, the more active gates - and the higher power consumption,
> everything else being more or less equal.

For microcontrollers, the number of bits in the core is usually a tiny
factor for power consumption.  When the core is idle, the peripherals
dominate the power consumption rather than the core.  And faster cores
spend more of their time in idle, compared to slower cores when doing
the same work - thus ARM Cortex cores are often preferred over 8-bit or
16-bit cores when power consumption is a factor.

> 
>>> Companies use what they need.  And it is not a "small increase in cost"
>>> - especially when you are talking millions of units.
>>>
>>
>> Small increases in cost per device are certainly relevant when the
>> quantities are high enough - no one will argue with that.  Nor will
>> anyone disagree that in some applications, it is important to use 2
>> layer or even single layer boards rather than 4 or 6 layers ones (5
>> layer boards do not exist).  All we disagree with is your ideas about
>> 10-bit DSPs and other such devices being 90% of the devices we have
>> around us.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> Actually, 5 layer boards do exist; I've had to deal with a few of them.

It is true that it is /possible/ to make a 5 layer board, but it is
almost totally pointless.  For those that don't know, multi-layer PCB
boards are made up of stacks.  Each element in the stack is either a
double-sided PCB (basically a fibreglass board with a copper layer on
each side, which is etched away to leave tracks, pads, polygons, etc.),
or it is a filler (a fibreglass board without copper layers).  You make
a 4 layer PCB with two double-sided PCBs, and a filler in between.  A 6
layer PCB takes three double-sided PCBs and two fillers, and so on.

(Yes, I know there are many more variations involved - but that's the
basics.)

A 5 layer board would require a double-sided PCB, a filler, and then a
single-sided board.  Since single-sided PCBs are not much cheaper than a
double-sided one in the multi-layer PCB process, there is little to save
in using 5 layers instead of 6.  And there are great problems with
manufacturing and using such a board - you aim to keep board layers
symmetrical to get a more accurate board, and better stability and
reliability during manufacturing and when dealing with temperature
changes.  Thus 5 layer boards are rarely offered by PCB manufacturers,
and rarely used.


> But you've already shown you have your head so far up your ass that you
> can see your tonsils, so that's no surprise.
> 
> So piss off, asshole.
> 
>

Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

IEEE: C is the first programming language jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-27 22:36 +0200
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-27 16:42 -0700
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 01:47 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-27 17:20 -0700
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-27 18:03 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 00:43 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 05:12 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 05:41 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 06:02 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 06:26 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 06:45 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 09:11 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 09:30 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-28 14:03 +0200
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 05:24 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 01:14 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 18:27 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 12:08 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-29 11:37 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 12:51 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-29 08:36 -0600
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 05:32 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 14:42 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 06:59 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 16:08 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-29 09:16 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 09:21 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 17:55 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 11:00 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 11:48 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-29 21:12 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 19:39 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-29 14:56 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 08:54 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-01 10:30 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 08:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 07:34 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 14:10 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-29 23:36 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 16:04 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-30 11:22 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-30 01:09 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 08:08 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 21:16 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 22:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-02 13:33 +0100
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 08:11 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:36 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 07:51 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 08:19 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 10:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 11:16 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 11:49 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 12:37 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 13:15 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 14:05 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-28 15:53 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 18:03 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 10:50 -0700
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-28 10:50 +0200
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-28 08:11 -0500
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:46 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 16:50 +0200
            Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 11:18 +0200
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:37 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 14:02 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 07:05 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 16:04 +0100
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com> - 2016-08-01 09:26 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 10:12 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-01 10:21 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 11:01 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-01 11:44 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-02 12:05 +0200
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-01 15:48 +0000
              Re: Setting architectural features in stone Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-08-02 20:09 -0400
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-03 06:42 +0000
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-03 11:02 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ivan Godard <ivan@millcomputing.com> - 2016-08-03 03:15 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-03 11:53 +0000
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-03 08:57 -0700
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-03 10:52 +0200
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-03 11:09 +0100
                Re: Setting architectural features in stone Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-03 08:51 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-01 10:51 +0100
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 13:13 +0200
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:27 -0700
          Setting architectural features in stone Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-08-01 10:00 -0700
            Re: Setting architectural features in stone anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-08-02 10:29 +0000
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-01 16:29 -0400
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 15:53 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-04 16:37 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-04 16:07 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-04 20:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-04 23:52 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:00 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 03:12 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 21:48 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 20:07 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:03 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-05 13:09 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 11:24 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 15:28 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 08:25 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 16:36 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 08:41 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 16:45 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 09:41 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 19:45 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-06 09:47 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-06 16:11 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 21:50 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-06 19:12 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-06 22:38 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:06 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:04 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:27 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 20:24 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:30 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:03 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:36 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-08 15:11 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:02 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 07:35 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-08 16:00 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 08:07 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-08 21:22 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:08 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-08-08 13:39 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:54 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:50 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 15:19 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-09 09:14 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 19:22 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-09 11:12 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2016-08-09 15:25 +0000
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 19:50 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 16:44 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-09 17:38 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:51 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 20:06 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-09 11:57 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-09 08:51 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 12:15 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-08 11:57 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-08 23:04 +1200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 15:20 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:27 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 09:21 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 17:33 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-08 14:35 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-05 14:06 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 14:37 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 13:53 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-07 14:09 +0100
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 10:08 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-07 17:34 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-07 21:37 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-07 19:18 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-08 12:31 +0200
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-08 03:55 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 08:28 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-08 09:44 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 10:13 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 07:51 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:39 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 11:27 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 15:29 -0400
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-05 08:38 -0700
                Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-05 13:40 -0400
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 21:27 +0200
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-07-29 00:19 +0200
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-08-01 11:49 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-28 10:01 +0000
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-07-28 01:57 -0500
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 07:27 -0700
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-28 09:06 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-28 09:39 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-28 11:56 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-28 15:19 -0400
        Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:15 -0700
          Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 05:25 -0700
            Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-01 07:37 -0700
              Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 08:21 -0700
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-07-27 17:17 -0700
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 14:17 +0200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-28 18:43 +0200
      Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-28 18:58 +0200
  Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-31 21:46 +0200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-01 16:37 +1200
    Re: IEEE: C is the first programming language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-01 07:20 -0700

csiph-web