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Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge

From Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am>
Newsgroups uk.net.news.moderation
Subject Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge
Date 2026-06-30 09:26 +0100
Message-ID <nahcucF70hvU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <111tm5p$al31$1@dont-email.me> <naf4scFo769U6@mid.individual.net> <111ufv0$ioeb$1@dont-email.me> <nag31cFo76aU4@mid.individual.net> <111vq3d$t78i$1@dont-email.me>

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On 30/06/2026 08:09, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
> news:nag31cFo76aU4@mid.individual.net...
>> On 29/06/2026 20:10, billy bookcase wrote:
>>> "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
>>> news:naf4scFo769U6@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 29/06/2026 12:49, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>> "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
>>>>> news:naf23rFo769U3@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> On 29/06/2026 09:52, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/06/2026 in message <naeov1Fo769U2@mid.individual.net> Norman Wells
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was using the gas without payment and without any valid non-payment
>>>>>>>> agreement. He was depriving its owner, whoever that was, permanently of
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> May I make a suggestion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you word your point around an anonymous person using gas, possibly
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> paying for it and possibly with no intention of paying for it, then your
>>>>>>> posts cease to look like a personal attack (otherwise known to
>>>>>>> pretentious
>>>>>>> twats as an "ad hom").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The above are the *facts* of the situation as he himself described.
>>>>>
>>>>> If as you claim it's a *fact*, that Roland had no intention of paying for
>>>>> any gas, could you please explain why he repeatedly asked them to send
>>>>> him gas bills ?
>>>>
>>>> Just for clarity, let me repeat what I said earlier this morning:
>>>
>>> Ah right !  "Just for clarity "
>>>
>>> IOW let's not talk about the statement you made which was just plain
>>> false.
>>
>> The statement I made that was quoted above was:
>>
>> "He was using the gas without payment and without any valid non-payment
>> agreement. He was depriving its owner, whoever that was, permanently of it."
> 
> You have no evidence whatsoever, that he didn't intend to eventually
> pay for it.

Indeed. There's no evidence that he did either.  All we have is 
probability based on what he actually did.  For example, if the answer 
to the question 'Did he pay for it eventually?', as I posed earlier, is 
'no', that's one clear indicator I'd have thought that he didn't have 
any such intention.  How about you?

In any case, as Section 2(2) of the Theft Act says:

"(2)  A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another may be 
dishonest notwithstanding that he is willing to pay for the property"

so your criterion is certainly not decisive.

Were it not so, any shoplifter on the odd occasion he's caught with 
goods up his jumper would have a ready-made get-out-of-jail-free that 
(of course) he's willing (on that occasion) to pay for them.

I suggest it doesn't work like that, nor should it.

> Anyone who buys anything whether in cash or on credit is "depriving
> the owner of it, permanently".
> 
> That aspect is totally irrelevant.

I agree.  It's just a fact in this case that is not in dispute.

> All that matters is whether there is any intention to pay for it.
> Either immediately; or at some point in the future

It's not his choice when he pays.  You can't just walk out of a shop 
with some goods and say bye, I'll pay you in ten years time.

If you want the goods now, you pay for them now or you make an agreement 
for future payment, neither of which applies in the case we're 
considering.  If you do neither, it's theft.

> And just to remind you, you stated it as a *fact*, just as in the
> case of the anonymous person cited by Jeff Gaines as quoted above,
> that Roland had *no intention of paying for any gas*.
> 
> Which of course, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary,
> is grossly defamatory

Well, it could be, but only if someone had said exactly that, which 
no-one has, and certainly not me.

> So that unless you can provide some sort of explanation as to
> why you believe Roland didn't intend to pay for that gas,

I have referred before to the circumstances as we know them that might 
reasonably lead to that conclusion.  He appropriated and used the gas 
without payment at the time or any agreement for non-payment or deferred 
payment.  He made some effort initially to be billed, but those efforts 
ceased when it got difficult.  He nevertheless continued to use the gas, 
despite there being no resolution, for a considerable period thereafter. 
  The likelihood, in my opinion, is that he would have continued in that 
vein indefinitely.  And, as far as we know, he never did pay for it.

How long do you consider it reasonable and honest to continue to use the 
gas without paying for it?  I've asked before but answer came there none.

> one can only
> assume, that as with your unfounded accusations in the IHT widow thread,
> your judgement has been totally warped by your deep seated animosity
> towards Roland.

Not so.  I deal with the facts and apply the law to them, impersonally 
and independent of whose situations they are.

And I don't make unfounded accusations.

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Thread

In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <bily@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 07:19 +0100
  Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 08:44 +0100
    Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 08:10 +0000
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 09:33 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 08:52 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:09 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 11:32 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-29 12:35 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 14:50 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 12:38 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 14:47 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 14:17 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:12 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 21:27 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-29 22:50 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 23:57 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-06-30 17:40 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:57 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-06-30 18:57 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 16:58 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-01 16:14 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 22:04 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-01 22:25 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 08:33 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-02 09:07 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 13:41 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-02 13:41 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-02 16:13 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 16:26 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-02 16:06 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-07-03 13:52 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-03 12:58 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 12:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 13:16 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-04 12:55 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 14:23 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-07-01 20:09 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 22:05 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 22:11 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 22:08 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 08:35 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> - 2026-07-03 14:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 12:02 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> - 2026-07-04 12:28 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 14:16 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:55 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 12:49 +0100
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 20:10 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 21:31 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 08:09 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 09:26 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 10:29 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 10:33 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 10:52 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 11:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 13:35 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 14:24 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 14:47 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 15:27 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 16:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:01 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-30 15:26 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:10 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-30 17:26 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 19:23 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 21:12 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:21 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 09:44 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 11:19 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 10:51 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 12:01 +0100
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-06-30 13:21 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 12:34 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 14:33 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 14:05 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 15:21 +0100
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 14:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 14:02 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 15:24 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 15:08 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 16:40 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-30 15:54 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:34 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:30 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 19:56 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:49 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 22:33 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 07:55 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 16:29 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:55 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 21:06 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 21:34 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 23:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-07-01 07:54 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-07-01 08:27 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 08:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-07-01 09:20 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 09:51 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-07-01 08:54 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-07-01 13:35 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-07-01 14:01 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> - 2026-07-01 14:53 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-07-01 15:20 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> - 2026-07-02 07:48 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-01 07:43 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 09:02 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-07-01 07:46 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 09:05 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:32 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:20 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 15:41 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 16:55 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:50 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:52 +0100
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-06-30 19:26 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:16 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 19:54 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:42 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:31 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 21:35 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:48 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-07-01 07:48 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 08:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 13:30 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 15:39 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 09:44 +0100
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> - 2026-06-29 16:09 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 16:36 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:43 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 18:51 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 21:14 +0100
    Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 10:15 +0100
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:43 +0100
    Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> - 2026-06-29 16:06 +0100
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 16:44 +0000
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 16:45 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:03 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:00 +0100
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 18:33 +0000
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 20:52 +0100

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