Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ
Date	2016-01-26 15:56 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<n88198$dcg$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <_vSdnceejs3xYDjLnZ2dnUU78UudnZ2d@supernews.com> <56a629f3.1073902240@news.eternal-september.org> <ptudnQPvTtf9sTvLnZ2dnUU78LOdnZ2d@supernews.com> <loWdnXPM4qZ7_DvLnZ2dnUU78U2dnZ2d@supernews.com> <56a751e3.1149661941@news.eternal-september.org>

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Stephen Pelc wrote:
> And perhaps you would let those who want to standardise an
> old-fashioned OOP do so in peace.

The problem of the 20 years old Forth OOP extensions is that they have too 
little overlap in the features to be useful outside of the box they have 
been made for.  These 20+ OOP systems are *not* the same, rather the 
contrarly: They explore all different parts of the OOP space, IIRC, we have 
found at least 6 orthogonal decisions, which means that there is room for 64 
different and mutually incompatible OOP systems.  The discussion with Klaus 
was very symptomatic with a lots of "I don't need this", just because he 
never had thought of this particular possible feature.  This was a core 
concept of OOP according to the literature...

Andrew's idea was to provide building blocks so that people can use those to 
create their special-purpose OOP system, or extend their special purpose OOP 
system by using those building blocks to make them more generalized.

My experience with proposing such building blocks (like the current object + 
instance and method invocation based on it, or the recognizer) is that the 
"I don't need this" mentality is still very strong.  Especially, since the 
strongest "I don't need this" came from exactly the person which needs it 
most, because he has cluttered his outer interpreter with tons of hooks, 
because he had needed recognizers 20 years ago, but didn't realize it.

Forth design says you should only solve the problem at hand, and not 
overgeneralize.  So "I don't need this" as answer is perfectly fine in the 
Forth world; the consequence however is that this particular aspect is not 
going to be standardized.

So whoever calls for a standard on OOP shall stop telling other people that 
he doesn't need this or that, or shut up with his request for 
standardization.  The second option is perfectly fine, we probably don't 
need an OOP standard.  We too much strive for simplicity and lightweight 
solutions that are only fit for a particular purpose, but we then really 
should accept that they are of limited reusability, and therefore not good 
enough for everybody.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

Thread

Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 07:47 -0800
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-12 16:25 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-12 10:45 -0600
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 08:46 -0800
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 11:57 -0500
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 09:22 -0800
          Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-12 21:04 -0800
            Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 07:59 +0200
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-12 19:42 +0000
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-12 12:53 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-13 15:45 +0000
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 13:44 -0500
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-13 11:39 -0800
          Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-14 05:01 +0100
          Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-14 12:28 +0000
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 09:50 -0800
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 11:50 -0800
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 12:30 -0800
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 12:43 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-12 21:01 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2016-01-12 15:00 -0800
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-12 16:13 -0800
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-12 16:22 -0800
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-12 16:24 -0800
          Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-12 17:46 -0800
            Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-12 18:39 -0800
              Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-13 13:05 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-14 04:33 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2016-01-14 03:27 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2016-01-14 04:42 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-14 13:03 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-13 21:17 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-13 21:44 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-14 10:57 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-14 12:20 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-14 13:57 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-14 14:22 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-14 16:14 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-01-15 03:05 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@antispam.uni.wroc.pl> - 2016-01-15 00:41 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-15 16:22 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2016-01-16 11:44 +0200
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-16 04:49 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-16 15:05 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2016-01-18 03:26 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-18 12:48 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-19 22:26 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-20 03:05 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-20 21:00 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-20 15:57 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-21 23:02 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-22 01:25 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-21 18:05 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-21 22:03 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-20 13:40 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2016-01-18 03:55 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-23 15:13 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ mhx@iae.nl - 2016-01-24 00:55 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-25 04:48 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-25 12:39 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-25 08:05 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-25 16:40 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-01-25 04:44 -0800
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-25 14:01 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-25 08:08 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-25 11:56 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-01-25 11:12 -1000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-26 03:33 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-26 11:09 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-26 11:06 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-26 07:45 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-26 16:46 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-26 11:16 -0600
                Object-oriented Forth (was: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-27 14:13 +0000
                Re: Object-oriented Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-27 10:33 -0600
                Re: Object-oriented Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-27 08:45 -0800
                Re: Object-oriented Forth Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 09:14 -0800
                Re: Object-oriented Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-29 21:57 -0800
                Re: Object-oriented Forth Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-30 10:58 +0000
                Re: Object-oriented Forth Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-30 09:38 -0800
                Re: Object-oriented Forth Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-01-30 20:39 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-26 15:56 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-01-26 20:46 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-25 22:27 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2016-01-28 14:20 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-28 08:06 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-28 16:14 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-28 10:32 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-01-28 17:26 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-28 12:13 -0600
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-29 11:07 +0000
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-01-29 21:18 +0100
                Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Tessa Bonting <tessa.bonting@gmail.com> - 2016-01-16 06:24 -0800
          Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-13 05:21 -0500
            Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-13 05:36 -0500
            Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-13 10:33 -0800
              Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-14 01:37 -0500
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 13:45 -0800
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 13:55 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-12 14:34 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 19:00 -0500
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 16:49 -0800
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 22:18 -0500
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-01-12 14:31 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-12 16:05 -0800
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-13 07:58 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-01-13 05:17 -0500
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-13 12:36 -0800
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 12:53 -0800
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-01-14 06:50 -0600
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 05:36 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 11:59 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 21:08 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-09 13:36 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-09 13:48 +0000
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-09 12:02 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-09 13:58 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-09 14:30 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 15:35 +0000
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-02-14 08:50 -0800
        Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 20:09 -0800
          Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-02-15 08:52 -0800
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 21:31 +0000
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-01-14 22:49 +0000
    Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:31 -0800
      Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-01-15 06:55 +0100
  Re: Ruby/Forth challenge for WJ djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2016-02-11 07:39 -0800

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