Re: AMD vs. Intel

From	Paul <nospam@needed.com>
Newsgroups	alt.comp.freeware, alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.hacker, alt.privacy.anon-server, comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject	Re: AMD vs. Intel
Date	2016-01-23 13:06 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<n80fab$qrn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <20160121211852.5f188d3f@maxa-pc> <n7rm00$i8$1@dont-email.me> <n7s8b2$lrs$1@dont-email.me> <n7tgpn$ljv$1@dont-email.me> <n7ua94$t4$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 5 groups.

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GreyCloud wrote:

> They should. The markets, at least to me, are getting rather boring.
> If I was the chairman of the board at IBM, I'd have fired the idiot that
> didn't try to cut the power consumption on the PowerPC line. That
> would've kept IBM in contention with Intel and kept their profits up,
> which as I understand it now is falling. Their single core G5 at the
> time did pretty good as one core, and I could only imagine what an 8
> core G5 with low power consumption could've done for the market.

Low power consumption is a side effect of the development process.

Even Intel, owning its own fab and having teams capable
of redefining transistor stacks multiple times over the years,
they still can't hit the power target they want, to compete with ARM.
They can only get "close". (Cheating with scenario design power
versus TDP, throttling when the chip gets hot and so on.)

Of course they "try to cut the power consumption",
every day when they come into work. But the work is
"hard". You can't wave a magic wand, and change your
position in the industry.

The architecture you select, defines "the gorilla you
drag around on your back". And as good as Intel is,
they'd can't squeeze enough advantage out of their fab,
to compensate for "X86/X64".

The fabs use equipment made by other companies. You
need lithography equipment. No silicon company tries
to make all the equipment in their production facility.
They need "nice machines" fully automated, ready for
unattended operation. All they can make in their own
labs, is spaghettio machines with wires and cables all
over the place, vacuum pumps, glass christmas trees,
stuff all over the place, and a team of PhDs adjusting
the knobs every day to keep it running. External companies
make the real production equipment. And the industry works
together to set the next process node, so you can actually
build and purchase the items you need to build a fab.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ibm-major-breakthrough-computer-chips-featuring-tiny-7-nanometer-transistors-2002277

"IBM said Thursday said it had successfully created
computer chips with microscopic 7-nanometer transistors,
a major breakthrough for the tech industry that should
allow hardware manufacturers to continue making faster
computers and smartphones over the next few years.

By creating tiny transistors of only 7 nm (1 nm equals
1 billionth of a meter) IBM is able to fit more transistors
onto its chips than possible with the current 22-nm and 14-nm
transistor chips.

"blah blah blah scaling to 7 nm and beyond," said Arvind Krishna,
senior vice president and director of IBM Research, in a statement.
"That’s why IBM has remained committed to an aggressive basic
research agenda that continually pushes the limits of semiconductor
technology."

For decades, transistors have gotten smaller, allowing for more
powerful computer chips to be created. This is known as Moore's Law,
but blah blah blah for at least a few more years.

To create the 7 nm transistors, IBM teamed up with other chipmakers,
including Samsung, and used a silicon-germanium mixture instead
of just silicon. It also had to develop new manufacturing processes
to achieve working transistors.

For IBM, the next challenge will be to figure out <----
a way to create these chips at a mass scale so
they can be commercially viable.
"

So the last paragraph is key. Yes, they made a breakthrough.
These don't happen every day. And someone needs to make
the equipment, refine the process, so that they can
build even a single football field sized fab to do it.

Even with the example photo of a test chip (perhaps done
with an E-beam), the rest of the industry will work to
make the production method cheap enough to actually
build a fab with. So if the chairman of IBM said
"make me a low power PowerPC", the fab guy would
say "not until we have production facilities
to do it". Making single wafers in your basement
with the PhDs, is not a production facility.

So IBM solved the problem of what to make substrates
or wafers out of. But how the transistors get transferred
to masks, for all those process steps that take 12 weeks
to complete, others are still working on this. It appears
they might still be using optical techniques in the
ultraviolet.

http://semiengineering.com/eda-races-to-7nm-despite-litho-uncertainties/

See, fun stuff. Still using optical methods
after all these years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_patterning

IBM can use much more expensive (lab prototype)
methods, like an E-beam writer, to make their test
chip. But whatever method they used, might be
too slow or too expensive for production purposes.

A lot of teamwork goes into this stuff. Even though
the companies compete, they can only keep the lithography
machine company in business, if he makes the same
equipment for everybody.

Paul

Thread

Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201601.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2016-01-19 01:50 +0100
  Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 16:17 +0800
  Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads JJ <jj4public@vfemail.net> - 2016-01-19 16:04 +0700
    Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 17:11 +0800
      Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Paul <nospam@needed.com> - 2016-01-19 06:27 -0500
        Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-19 20:55 +0800
      Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> - 2016-01-19 22:55 +0100
        Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-19 15:10 -0700
          Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2016-01-20 03:30 +0100
            Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-20 09:32 -0500
              Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2016-01-20 15:05 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-20 15:57 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads G. Morgan <sealteam6@osama-is-dead.net> - 2016-01-31 00:28 -0600
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Paul <nospam@needed.com> - 2016-01-31 02:24 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Jeremy Bentham <nobody@anemone.mooo.com> - 2016-01-20 23:47 +0100
                AMD vs. Intel vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2016-01-20 23:21 +0000
                Re: AMD vs. Intel chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-21 06:48 -0600
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-21 19:30 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-21 14:51 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-01-21 21:18 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-21 17:30 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-21 20:42 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-22 07:15 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Jeremy Bentham <nobody@anemone.mooo.com> - 2016-01-22 08:48 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-22 15:24 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-01-22 23:34 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201601.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2016-01-23 01:58 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-23 01:47 +0000
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-01-23 11:24 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-23 10:23 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-01-23 18:37 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-24 10:23 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-01-24 23:23 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-25 05:04 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-25 07:49 -0600
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-25 11:06 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-25 11:05 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-26 08:02 +0000
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201601.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2016-01-24 19:06 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-24 16:14 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-24 15:38 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-01-24 15:59 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-24 10:25 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2016-01-25 08:11 -0600
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-25 10:55 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-25 11:07 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-26 01:58 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-01-26 02:05 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-01-26 11:24 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-27 12:17 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-27 21:58 +0000
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Jeremy Bentham <nobody@anemone.mooo.com> - 2016-01-26 19:55 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Jeremy Bentham <nobody@anemone.mooo.com> - 2016-01-23 06:20 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-22 10:13 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Paul <nospam@needed.com> - 2016-01-22 11:57 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-22 15:27 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-23 09:37 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-23 10:28 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2016-01-24 06:21 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-24 10:29 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Paul <nospam@needed.com> - 2016-01-23 13:06 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-24 10:36 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-22 06:59 -0600
                Re: AMD vs. Intel GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-22 15:30 -0700
                Re: AMD vs. Intel chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-22 07:25 -0600
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Flasherly <Flasherly@live.com> - 2016-01-21 15:10 -0500
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-01-21 21:23 +0100
                Re: AMD vs. Intel Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-21 17:40 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2016-01-21 10:40 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads PAS <abc@doremi.net> - 2016-01-21 12:16 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-21 11:26 -0600
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-01-21 11:31 -0600
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-21 23:42 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-21 13:08 -0500
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2016-01-21 22:31 +0100
              Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-20 20:29 +0000
            Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-20 11:53 -0700
              Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-20 20:59 +0000
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-20 14:29 -0700
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-21 05:44 +0000
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-21 14:17 -0700
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2016-01-22 04:31 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2016-01-21 20:44 -0700
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-22 08:35 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2016-01-23 06:13 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-23 10:03 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201601.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2016-01-23 15:39 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Jeremy Bentham <nobody@anemone.mooo.com> - 2016-01-24 05:06 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> - 2016-01-24 10:39 +0100
                Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> - 2016-01-25 00:22 +0100
    Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Paul <nospam@needed.com> - 2016-01-19 05:09 -0500
      Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Diesel <me@privacy.net> - 2016-01-30 08:07 +0000
    Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2016-01-19 22:16 +0100
      Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex  Workloads Euclides Zoto <euclides_zoto@optimum.net> - 2016-01-18 18:20 -0800
    Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads Diesel <me@privacy.net> - 2016-01-30 08:07 +0000
      Re: Intel Skylake Processor Bug Causing PCs To Freeze In Complex Workloads "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> - 2016-01-30 10:03 +0100

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