Re: Do neutrinos really have masses?

From	Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics
Subject	Re: Do neutrinos really have masses?
Date	2015-12-17 17:14 -0600
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<n4vfjs$akp$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <n4v5bs$p51$1@dont-email.me> <n4v6v7$n28$1@speranza.aioe.org> <n4v7pv$4k3$1@dont-email.me> <n4vagd$v0r$1@speranza.aioe.org> <n4vcf5$tk9$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 12/17/2015 4:22 PM, Poutnik wrote:
> Well, this feature of the model is a good description of reality.

Curvature and permittivity are BOTH good descriptions of reality -- 
wait, they're not really. They're properties of the model, remember? Not 
properties of reality.

So when you say "description of reality", you're not really talking 
about the properties OF that reality, are you?

The problem I have with all this is that "description of reality" 
becomes wholly muddied up. Because the only way you can apply ANY 
quality measures on the model (as in "good description of reality") is 
to say things like, "Well, we can predict observations with the model, 
where observations are not really observing reality, but only the 
outcome of some procedure we follow, and the procedure itself (and hence 
the 'observation') is another model, and the quality of the model is how 
well the predictions match the 'observation', but reality hasn't really 
entered into it at all." Thus science reduces to some sort of 
internalized navel-gazing, where we're not really able to say anything 
about nature at all. And hence "good description of reality" is an 
impotent and inaccurate phrase, in this philosophy.

I'm not saying that our description of reality is perfect -- it never 
is, but to say that quantum mechanical spin doesn't have any meaning or 
any referent in a property of a REAL electron, just seems to beg the 
whole question of the value of science.

-- 
Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Thread

Do neutrinos really have masses? SEKI <seki.hajime01@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 09:06 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? omnilobe@gmail.com - 2015-12-11 09:59 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 10:05 -0800
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 12:25 -0600
      Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 13:57 -0800
        Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 22:48 -0600
          Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 12:27 -0800
            Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 15:31 -0600
              Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 22:47 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-14 04:54 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 05:28 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 08:36 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-15 00:54 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 07:20 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 07:18 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 09:39 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 11:44 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-16 03:15 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 11:47 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 13:45 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 16:06 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 16:08 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 16:09 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? dobri karagorgov <dobrikarate.gov@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 14:15 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 02:16 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-16 03:05 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 06:59 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-17 02:42 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 09:43 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-17 14:12 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 08:42 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-16 03:30 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 07:34 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 15:54 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 09:04 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 16:25 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-17 02:34 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 09:13 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 21:21 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 14:46 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 22:03 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 15:46 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 23:22 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 17:14 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 10:44 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 07:56 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 09:16 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 17:21 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 09:44 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 01:26 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 21:25 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 14:47 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 22:22 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 15:49 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 22:58 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-18 00:31 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 08:00 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 07:50 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-18 15:12 +0000
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 08:16 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-18 16:53 +0000
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 01:32 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 23:50 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-18 23:19 +0000
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 01:35 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 09:32 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 15:04 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-24 12:09 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-24 14:47 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-24 13:22 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-24 15:42 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 16:02 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 18:54 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-26 07:06 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-12-28 09:03 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 18:21 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-19 10:15 +0000
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 12:44 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-20 12:44 +0000
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 14:10 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 10:39 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 11:47 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 15:20 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 07:48 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-18 15:29 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 01:00 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 00:54 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 18:11 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-16 03:41 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <Poutnik4NNTP@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 10:42 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-17 02:47 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 20:55 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? dobri karagorgov <dobrikarate.gov@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 12:24 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-18 15:30 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 10:47 +0100
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2015-12-15 13:53 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-16 03:33 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 09:59 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-15 03:37 -0500
              Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 17:42 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 20:57 -0500
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 12:07 -0600
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 10:03 -0800
      Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? NoeDOTNatDOTNoe <dedanoe@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 10:24 -0800
      Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 12:41 -0600
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 02:30 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-14 04:44 -0500
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 06:36 -0800
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-20 09:46 -0800
      Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 18:58 +0100
        Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-22 10:16 -0800
          Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-23 13:00 -0500
            Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-23 15:57 -0800
              Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-26 07:45 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-27 09:01 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:24 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-27 16:51 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 20:13 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-27 23:58 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-28 06:55 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-28 08:37 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-28 20:31 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 08:25 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 08:30 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 08:45 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 10:50 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 09:22 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 11:28 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 09:59 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 10:34 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 12:48 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 11:38 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 13:52 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 11:50 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 10:18 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 12:50 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 11:45 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 13:54 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 13:20 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 16:53 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 16:13 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 16:20 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 18:23 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 17:49 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "Sam Jones" <invalid@example.com> - 2015-12-30 20:38 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-12-31 05:55 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-31 09:45 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-31 13:04 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 16:25 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-30 11:31 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 10:55 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 13:04 -0600
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? dobri karagorgov <dobrikarate.gov@gmail.com> - 2015-12-29 11:24 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-12-30 09:14 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-30 09:53 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-30 09:49 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-29 08:11 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-30 11:40 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-31 08:35 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2015-12-31 16:11 -0500
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Raymond Yohros <bat@birdband.net> - 2015-12-31 14:34 -0800
                Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2016-01-01 02:57 -0500
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? SEKI <seki.hajime01@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 07:25 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 13:32 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 14:23 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 09:35 -0800
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 11:47 -0600
      Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 10:24 -0800
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 13:28 -0800
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 16:33 -0600
  Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 10:09 -0800
    Re: Do neutrinos really have masses? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 13:53 -0600

csiph-web