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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #43518
| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Stoked |
| Date | 2015-11-13 01:50 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <n2413b$joc$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (17 earlier) <876117r7ql.fsf@nightsong.com> <n22scs$3ju$1@dont-email.me> <87si4aq5l3.fsf@nightsong.com> <n230sm$m1s$1@dont-email.me> <8737wapk9u.fsf@nightsong.com> |
On 11/12/2015 11:59 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> I think the point of comparison was different. Working on the target >> can be very productive, but that would be compared to the edit, >> compile, load, debug cycle using a VAX or similar machine potentially >> shared between a dozen users. > > I wrote lots of C on Vaxes back then. It wasn't that much different > than writing C today. Compiling was much slower per KLOC but you tended > to work on smaller programs. Interactive debuggers (then and now) let > you trace through a running program without having to recompile it a lot > of times. Forth's much faster compilation lets you insert tracing and > recompile instead of using an external breakpoint debugger, we've had > some threads here comparing the approaches. It didn't occur to me > til just now, maybe C users preferred debuggers because they avoid > recompiles that are much cheaper in Forth. > > Overall though, I think the big productivity gain over the VAX era is > that C is now relegated to a low level systems niche, with application > programming usually done in HLL's. > >> I'm not so worried about users modifying the code. Not my problem. > > Whether that's useful depends of course on what you're trying to do. > >> You get a board, install the flash software, burn the Forth program >> and start working with it through the term emulator. You edit your >> code on the PC using your favorite editor and load it into the board >> in RAM for debug, Flash for inclusion to the system. > > Hmm, most of those chips let you erase and rewrite flash blocks under > program control. So I was expecting an Arduino-like system where > there's a protected bootloader in low flash, that lets you load your > program over the same port that's used for other comms. You don't need > to mess with an actual flash programmer unless you somehow corrupt the > boot loader, which is hard to do by accident. > >> Why bother with the ARM server? Why not just use your PC? > > 1) the ARM server is an actual server, in a data center, running 24/7 > with high speed internet, etc. I can access it from anywhere and > serve data to other computers from it. I can back it up over the > network without being limited by my slow DSL uplink. I don't have to > worry about bogging my laptop down if I run an overnight computation > on it (I did a 7 hour software build a couple nights ago), etc. I > always prefer remote servers to my laptop for big calculations, since > the laptop fan turns on and the thing feels like it's straining. This isn't making any sense to me. I'm not sure what programs you are working on, but if you are targeting an embedded target I see no reason why an ARM server would be of any real value. When you talk about the entire development system being on the embedded MSP430 target and then you talk about 7 hour builds, I can only figure you are living in a different universe than I am. > 2) I wanted a 32-bit system to mess with and my laptop has a 64 bit OS. To develop code for a 16 bit target... > 3) The ARM is a crash and burn machine. If I mess something up badly > enough, it's no big deal to wipe it out and reinstall. I have no idea what you could be doing that would crash a PC to the point you need to reinstall the OS. > 4) I'd like to try ARM-specific software like Mecrisp, which has an > ARM Linux port. Which you could run on the MSP430 target instead. > 5) The ARM servers are crazy cheap (0.6 eurocents/hour or 3 euro/month > rental) and I can acquire and release them under program control > through an API. They're about 1/4 the CPU speed of my laptop, or > similar to a netbook Atom or a RPi model 2. So for 60 eurocents an > hour I can launch 100 of them in parallel and do a calculation in a > few days that would take months on my laptop. There's actually a > shortage of the boards right now (probably can't get 100 at once) but > being able to do that is the design intention and hopefully they'll > get more hardware in place soon. It's sort of a miniature EC2 cloud. The $10 MSP430 board is *free* to use once you get in house. >> Once you connect the PC there is no reason to do extra work to move >> functionality into the target. > > A tethered Forth may be even better-- Elizabeth says her users prefer > that to resident Forths these days. I don't know of any free ones > though. A tethered forth is some work to get going and is *exactly* the dedicated environment with dependencies on both the target and host that you were saying you wanted to avoid. >>> The cpu uses a MIPS-descended architecture >> That's a MAJOR port > > Hmm ok. > >> I'm not looking for chip docs, I want board docs. > > I thought Olimex published a lot of such stuff. You could ask on their > forum. The forum for this board seems to be people asking/complaining with no responses. >> MUCH easier. Heck, using a STM32F4 means it may already have a port. >> I may have to try this one! > > There's a link in the Hackaday thread to Seeed Studios which sells them > for $8. Let me know if you get one and do anything with it. I might, but it will be later I think. The lack of real documentation is an issue. I have an FPGA/CPU SoC board I want to work with. If I get that working I will try this next. -- Rick
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Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:04 -0700
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:18 -0700
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 12:35 -0400
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:54 -0700
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Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 11:21 -0700
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Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:12 -0700
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:31 -0400
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:55 -0700
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 01:36 -0400
Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 06:01 -0700
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:22 -0400
Re: Stoked Marcos Cruz <use_the_contact_page@programandala.net> - 2015-11-07 17:50 +0000
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:04 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 10:19 -0800
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 08:29 -1000
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-07 13:28 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 13:33 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 16:40 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 14:25 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 18:03 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 15:22 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:13 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 22:35 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:58 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 23:17 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 02:49 -0500
Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 00:06 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:40 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 15:18 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 13:31 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 17:19 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 20:49 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:57 -0500
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-11 22:24 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 23:34 -0800
Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:03 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 19:37 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 15:24 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 13:18 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 16:40 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 20:59 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 01:50 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 23:11 -0800
Re: Stoked forthisit@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 13:47 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 16:27 -0800
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-12 12:18 -1000
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-13 00:28 -0800
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-11 22:37 -1000
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 23:37 -0800
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:19 +0000
Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 07:47 +0100
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-23 11:27 +0000
Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 13:43 +0100
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 12:49 -1000
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 19:20 -0500
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:44 -1000
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:23 +0000
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:32 -0800
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:45 +0000
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:53 -0800
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 21:25 +0000
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 14:09 -0800
Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-09 05:32 -0500
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:58 +0000
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:42 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:11 -0800
Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-15 12:50 +0100
Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 23:56 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 03:24 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:31 -0800
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:57 -1000
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 02:18 -0800
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 08:33 -1000
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:07 -0500
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:49 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:06 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:20 -0500
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 22:51 -0800
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:22 -0500
Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 04:32 -0800
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-10 13:48 +0000
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 16:17 -0500
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Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 15:03 +0100
Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 13:18 +0100
Re: Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 14:08 +0100
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Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-10 00:50 -0800
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:52 -1000
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:16 -1000
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:07 -1000
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:58 +0000
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 12:00 -1000
Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:49 +0000
Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-28 23:24 +0000
Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 17:30 -0700
Re: Stoked Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@antispam.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-10-29 02:40 +0000
Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:11 +0000
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Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 15:29 -0400
Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 13:27 -0700
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Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:28 -0400
Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
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Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-30 18:53 -1000
Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-11-01 04:28 -0800
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 22:27 -0800
Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 16:47 -0700
Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:33 -0400
Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-31 00:55 -0700
Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:52 +0000
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Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:50 +0000
Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 18:39 +0100
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 11:11 -0700
Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 20:01 +0100
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-28 12:34 -0700
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:09 -0700
Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:25 -0700
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:01 -0700
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Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 23:34 -0700
Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-29 08:56 +0100
Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-28 18:41 -0400
Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 05:28 -0700
Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-12 11:25 -0500
Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-12 08:43 -1000
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-16 13:45 -0800
Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-17 10:26 -0800
Re: Stoked Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2015-12-13 23:29 -0500
Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 22:31 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0700
Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-29 16:57 +0000
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:36 -0700
Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-31 14:57 +0000
Re: Stoked Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 20:25 +0100
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 20:39 -0800
Re: Stoked Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:27 -0700
Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 05:57 -0700
Re: Stoked "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-02 13:15 +1100
Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-02 02:08 -0800
Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 09:28 -0700
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Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-28 18:14 +0000
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Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-09 00:10 -0800
Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 18:52 -0800
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