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Re: Stoked

From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Stoked
Date 2015-11-12 20:59 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <8737wapk9u.fsf@nightsong.com> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <n219k5$2td$1@dont-email.me> <876117r7ql.fsf@nightsong.com> <n22scs$3ju$1@dont-email.me> <87si4aq5l3.fsf@nightsong.com> <n230sm$m1s$1@dont-email.me>

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rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> I think the point of comparison was different.  Working on the target
> can be very productive, but that would be compared to the edit,
> compile, load, debug cycle using a VAX or similar machine potentially
> shared between a dozen users.

I wrote lots of C on Vaxes back then.  It wasn't that much different
than writing C today.  Compiling was much slower per KLOC but you tended
to work on smaller programs.  Interactive debuggers (then and now) let
you trace through a running program without having to recompile it a lot
of times.  Forth's much faster compilation lets you insert tracing and
recompile instead of using an external breakpoint debugger, we've had
some threads here comparing the approaches.  It didn't occur to me
til just now, maybe C users preferred debuggers because they avoid
recompiles that are much cheaper in Forth.

Overall though, I think the big productivity gain over the VAX era is
that C is now relegated to a low level systems niche, with application
programming usually done in HLL's.

> I'm not so worried about users modifying the code.  Not my problem.

Whether that's useful depends of course on what you're trying to do.

> You get a board, install the flash software, burn the Forth program
> and start working with it through the term emulator.  You edit your
> code on the PC using your favorite editor and load it into the board
> in RAM for debug, Flash for inclusion to the system. 

Hmm, most of those chips let you erase and rewrite flash blocks under
program control.  So I was expecting an Arduino-like system where
there's a protected bootloader in low flash, that lets you load your
program over the same port that's used for other comms.  You don't need
to mess with an actual flash programmer unless you somehow corrupt the
boot loader, which is hard to do by accident.

> Why bother with the ARM server?  Why not just use your PC?

1) the ARM server is an actual server, in a data center, running 24/7
   with high speed internet, etc.  I can access it from anywhere and
   serve data to other computers from it.  I can back it up over the
   network without being limited by my slow DSL uplink.  I don't have to
   worry about bogging my laptop down if I run an overnight computation
   on it (I did a 7 hour software build a couple nights ago), etc.  I
   always prefer remote servers to my laptop for big calculations, since
   the laptop fan turns on and the thing feels like it's straining.

2) I wanted a 32-bit system to mess with and my laptop has a 64 bit OS.

3) The ARM is a crash and burn machine.  If I mess something up badly
   enough, it's no big deal to wipe it out and reinstall.

4) I'd like to try ARM-specific software like Mecrisp, which has an
   ARM Linux port.

5) The ARM servers are crazy cheap (0.6 eurocents/hour or 3 euro/month
   rental) and I can acquire and release them under program control
   through an API.  They're about 1/4 the CPU speed of my laptop, or
   similar to a netbook Atom or a RPi model 2.  So for 60 eurocents an
   hour I can launch 100 of them in parallel and do a calculation in a
   few days that would take months on my laptop.  There's actually a
   shortage of the boards right now (probably can't get 100 at once) but
   being able to do that is the design intention and hopefully they'll
   get more hardware in place soon.  It's sort of a miniature EC2 cloud.

> Once you connect the PC there is no reason to do extra work to move
> functionality into the target.

A tethered Forth may be even better-- Elizabeth says her users prefer
that to resident Forths these days.  I don't know of any free ones
though.

>> The cpu uses a MIPS-descended architecture
> That's a MAJOR port 

Hmm ok.

> I'm not looking for chip docs, I want board docs.

I thought Olimex published a lot of such stuff.  You could ask on their
forum.

> MUCH easier.  Heck, using a STM32F4 means it may already have a port.
> I may have to try this one!

There's a link in the Hackaday thread to Seeed Studios which sells them
for $8.  Let me know if you get one and do anything with it.

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Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:04 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:18 -0700
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 12:35 -0400
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:54 -0700
        Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:35 -0700
        Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 11:21 -0700
        Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:24 -0400
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:12 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:31 -0400
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 14:55 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 01:36 -0400
          Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 06:01 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:22 -0400
          Re: Stoked Marcos Cruz <use_the_contact_page@programandala.net> - 2015-11-07 17:50 +0000
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:04 -0500
              Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 10:19 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 08:29 -1000
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-07 13:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 13:33 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 16:40 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 14:25 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 18:03 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 15:22 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:13 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 22:35 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 01:58 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-07 23:17 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 02:49 -0500
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 00:06 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:40 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 15:18 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 13:31 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 17:19 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 20:49 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:57 -0500
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-11 22:24 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-11 23:34 -0800
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 00:03 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 19:37 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 15:24 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 13:18 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 16:40 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 20:59 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 01:50 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 23:11 -0800
                Re: Stoked forthisit@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 13:47 -0800
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-12 16:27 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-12 12:18 -1000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-13 00:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-11 22:37 -1000
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-12 23:37 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:19 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 07:47 +0100
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-23 11:27 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-23 13:43 +0100
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 12:49 -1000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 19:20 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:44 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:23 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:32 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 18:45 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 10:53 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 21:25 +0000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 14:09 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-09 05:32 -0500
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:58 +0000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:42 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:11 -0800
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-15 12:50 +0100
                Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 23:56 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 03:24 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 01:31 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:57 -1000
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 02:18 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 08:33 -1000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:07 -0500
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:49 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:06 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 00:20 -0500
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-08 22:51 -0800
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 02:22 -0500
                Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 04:32 -0800
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-10 13:48 +0000
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-11-10 17:26 -0500
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-08 21:50 -1000
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-09 12:15 +0000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 15:09 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 09:47 +0100
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-24 12:54 +0000
                Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-24 15:03 +0100
                Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 13:18 +0100
                Re: Emulating a 16-bit Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-11-25 14:08 +0100
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-09 14:30 +0000
                Re: Stoked Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-11-09 18:27 +0100
                Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-10 00:50 -0800
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:52 -1000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:16 -1000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 23:07 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:58 +0000
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-07 12:00 -1000
                Re: Stoked Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-11-08 17:49 +0000
        Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-28 23:24 +0000
          Re: Stoked Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 17:30 -0700
          Re: Stoked Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@antispam.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-10-29 02:40 +0000
            Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:11 +0000
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:07 -0700
            Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 21:16 -0700
            Re: Stoked franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-10-29 01:35 -0700
            Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-29 10:16 +0000
              Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 03:35 -0700
                Re: Stoked lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 03:48 -0700
          Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 11:31 -0700
            Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 12:01 -0700
              Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:26 -0700
            Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 15:29 -0400
              Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 13:27 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-29 16:48 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 14:58 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:36 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 04:34 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 13:28 -0400
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-30 12:05 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:32 -0400
                Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-30 18:53 -1000
                Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-11-01 04:28 -0800
                Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 22:27 -0800
                Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-29 16:47 -0700
                Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 01:33 -0400
                Re: Stoked mhx@iae.nl - 2015-10-31 00:55 -0700
                Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:52 +0000
              Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 14:49 -0700
              Re: Stoked stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-30 11:50 +0000
    Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 18:39 +0100
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 11:11 -0700
        Re: Stoked Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 20:01 +0100
        Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-28 12:34 -0700
          Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 13:09 -0700
    Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:25 -0700
      Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:01 -0700
        Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-29 01:58 -0400
          Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 23:34 -0700
        Re: Stoked Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-29 08:56 +0100
    Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-28 18:41 -0400
      Re: Stoked josv@planet.nl - 2015-10-29 05:28 -0700
      Re: Stoked "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-12 11:25 -0500
        Re: Stoked "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-12 08:43 -1000
          Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-16 13:45 -0800
            Re: Stoked hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-17 10:26 -0800
        Re: Stoked Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2015-12-13 23:29 -0500
          Re: Stoked Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 22:31 -0800
    Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 15:52 -0700
      Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-29 16:57 +0000
        Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-29 12:36 -0700
          Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-31 14:57 +0000
            Re: Stoked Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-10-31 20:25 +0100
        Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-11-03 20:39 -0800
    Re: Stoked Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 16:27 -0700
    Re: Stoked Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 05:57 -0700
    Re: Stoked "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-02 13:15 +1100
      Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-02 02:08 -0800
  Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 09:28 -0700
    Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 09:37 -0700
      Re: Stoked Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-28 10:28 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 10:52 -0700
    Re: Stoked anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-28 18:14 +0000
  Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-10-28 15:20 -0700
    Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-28 21:16 -0700
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 12:13 -0700
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 15:34 -0400
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 13:57 -0800
    Re: Stoked rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-07 17:19 -0500
  Re: Stoked François <francois.ganza@wanadoo.fr> - 2015-11-09 00:10 -0800
  Re: Stoked Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 18:52 -0800

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