Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #236600

Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50)

From	Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50)
Date	2026-11-06 13:59 +0000
Message-ID	<n231sm-d23.ln1@ID-313840.user.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <11cdgp6$46jl$5@dont-email.me> <fcqrrm-5o6.ln1@ID-313840.user.individual.net> <11cg8q2$12d33$1@dont-email.me> <eceurm-lq4.ln1@ID-313840.user.individual.net> <11cijp9$1sunb$1@dont-email.me>

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Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2026 13:53:50 +0000, Geoff Clare wrote:
> 
>> From my post on Fri, 30 Oct 2026 13:26:19 +0000:
>>
>>     My point was that of the shells that /bin/sh can be configured
>>     to execute (bash, dash and zsh), bash conforms to UNIX03 but I
>>     don't think dash and zsh do. So if you want conforming behaviour
>>     you have to stick with the default configuration (bash).
> 
> Which is not true anyway <https://manpages.debian.org/dash(1)>.

It would have been helpful if you pointed to which part of that
web page you are referring to.  I assume it is the part that says
"dash is a POSIX-compliant implementation of /bin/sh that aims to
be as small as possible".  

Notice that it says POSIX-compliant, not UNIX-compliant.

The difference, as I explained before, is that UNIX conformance
requires the POSIX "XSI Option" to be supported (and others).
One of the XSI requirements is that "echo -n foo" writes "-n foo"
and a newline.  With the built-in echo on dash (at least on Debian;
I haven't tried it on macOS) it writes just "foo" (the -n suppresses
the newline).  This is allowed for POSIX conformance, but not for
UNIX conformance.

There may well be other ways that dash does not conform to UNIX
(or indeed POSIX, despite Debian's claim) requirements too.  I seem
to remember discussions in the Austin Group about it not handling
multibyte characters correctly.

>> POSIX.1 does mention bash, in non-normative rationale, as I said
>> before.
> 
> No, you said “I think it needs to execute bash in order for the system
> to conform to UNIX03”. “Needs” is hardly “non-normative” is it?

You are mixing up two completely separate statements that I made.

"I think it needs to execute bash ..." was a statement of my opinion
regarding how macOS needs to be configured in order to conform to
UNIX03.

"POSIX.1 does mention bash, in non-normative rationale" was a statement
of fact about the POSIX.1/SUS standard (backed up with evidence).

>>> I just rechecked the compliance register for UNIX v03
>>>
>>> <https://www.opengroup.org//openbrand/register/xy.htm>
>>>
>>> You’ll notice Apple is no longer listed ...
>>
>> That's strange. Looks like a glitch on their web site, as it's only
>> missing from the "umbrella" UNIX03 product standard listing; it's
>> still there for the individual product standards that comprise
>> UNIX03:
>>
>>     Internationalized System Calls and Libraries Extd V3
>>     https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/sd.htm
>>
>>     Commands and Utilities V4
>>     https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/cx.htm
>>
>>     C Language V2
>>     https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/lm.htm
>>
>>     Internationalized Terminal Interfaces
>>     https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/uu.htm
> 
> These only mention macOS 26 “Tahoe”, not macOS 27 “Golden Gate”.
> Wasn’t that released several months ago? Hasn’t it passed UNIX
> compliance yet? (Or at all?)
> 
> Could that be why it was dropped from the register page?

The previous certifications for Sequoia are still listed with the
Tahoe ones on the above pages.  So regardless of what the situation
is with Golden Gate, there wouldn't be any reason to remove the
Tahoe ones from the register.

Still seems like just a glitch to me.

-- 
Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

Thread

Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-29 04:56 +0000
  Re: Emacs Turns 50 Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-10-29 07:30 +0000
  bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-10-29 15:00 +0000
    Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-29 23:09 +0000
      Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-30 00:49 +0000
      Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-10-30 13:26 +0000
        Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-30 22:37 +0000
          Re: bash on macOS Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-31 01:06 +0000
            Re: bash on macOS Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-02 13:42 +0000
              Re: bash on macOS Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-02 20:11 +0000
          Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-02 13:28 +0000
            Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-02 20:10 +0000
              Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-03 13:17 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 20:39 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-04 01:02 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-04 14:00 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:41 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-05 13:53 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 19:00 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-06 13:59 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-06 07:43 -0700
                Re: bash on macOS scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-06 15:42 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-06 10:48 -0700
                Re: bash on macOS Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-06 18:21 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-06 18:16 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-06 21:52 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-07 00:35 +0000
                Portability of 'echo -n' (was: Re: bash on macOS) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-07 10:02 +0000
                Re: Portability of 'echo -n' antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-07 21:24 +0000
                Re: Portability of 'echo -n' Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-07 22:25 +0000
                Re: Portability of 'echo -n' Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-08 00:25 +0000
                Re: Portability of 'echo -n' Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-09 14:38 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-06 20:43 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-06 20:42 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-11-09 14:05 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-09 22:23 +0800
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-09 16:00 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-09 22:13 +0000
                Re: bash on macOS (was: Emacs Turns 50) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-10 01:21 +0000
  Re: Emacs Turns 50 rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-29 15:51 +0000
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-30 12:16 +0000
      Re: Emacs Turns 50, gpl is still a bad idea John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-30 17:49 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50, gpl is still a bad idea Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-31 01:13 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50, gpl is still a bad idea Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-31 18:45 +0000
          macOS Tivoization (was: Re: Emacs Turns 50) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-01 01:17 +0000
            Re: macOS Tivoization (was: Re: Emacs Turns 50) Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-11-04 12:14 +0000
              Re: macOS Tivoization Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-11-04 15:12 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50, gpl is still a bad idea antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-01 15:06 +0000
      Re: Emacs Turns 50 Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-30 18:24 -0400
      Re: Emacs Turns 50 Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-11-09 22:25 +0800
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-09 19:58 +0000
  Re: Emacs Turns 50 Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-30 18:20 -0400
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-10-30 23:45 +0000
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-31 15:28 +0100
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2026-11-03 17:05 +0200
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 John McCue <jmclnx@gmail.com.invalid> - 2026-11-03 21:16 +0000
      Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-03 22:22 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-11-04 07:14 +0000
          Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-04 08:24 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 John McCue <jmclnx@gmail.com.invalid> - 2026-11-06 01:27 +0000
  Re: Emacs Turns 50 Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-11-04 19:19 -0800
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-11-05 03:21 +0000
      Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 03:33 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-05 15:04 +0000
          Re: Emacs Turns 50 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-11-05 16:13 +0000
            Re: Emacs Turns 50 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-11-05 09:26 -0700
              Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 19:06 +0000
              Re: Emacs Turns 50 rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-05 19:38 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 23:09 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-11-06 17:59 +0000
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-05 03:26 +0000
      Re: Emacs Turns 50 Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> - 2026-11-04 21:09 -0700
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-11-05 06:51 +0000
          Re: Emacs Turns 50 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-11-05 19:17 +0000
            Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 22:59 +0000
            Re: Emacs Turns 50 Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-11-06 00:12 +0100
              Re: Emacs Turns 50 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-11-05 23:24 +0000
              Re: Emacs Turns 50 "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-11-08 14:26 +0000
        Re: Emacs Turns 50 Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-11-05 23:26 -0800
    Re: Emacs Turns 50 Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-11-05 09:23 +0000

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