Re: Is it possible C is the security problem?

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is it possible C is the security problem?
Date	2015-11-04 02:06 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<n1bp74$50a$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <n1ahsd$2sh$1@dont-email.me> <fdfca5e3-40df-4f03-895d-636dd60e61cb@googlegroups.com> <n1ajhr$a04$1@dont-email.me> <87fv0m4z9s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <vcgi3b14huh6e05dm0i8dfm726gdvdk079@4ax.com>

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Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 20:13:35 +0000, Ben Bacarisse

(snip)
>>This struck me as an extraordinary claim, but then I calmed down and
>>thought about it bit more!  I think your reply comes from a position of
>>conflating the error with the consequences.  Yes, programmers will
>>always make mistakes, and the mistake that was made in this case was a
>>simple failure to check a bound.  That could happen in any programming
>>language, but the actual harm was done because of a

>>  memcpy(bp, pl, payload);

>>a few lines later.  The incoming request (pointed to by pl), and the
>>outgoing reply (pointed to by bp) are treated as un-typed byte arrays,
>>and data is copied from one to the other with no regard to the sizes or
>>types of the source objects.

>>There are many programming languages in which the error (the missing
>>test) would just be a relatively harmless logic bug because there would
>>be no way for a reckless request to a copy of data from one buffer to
>>another to actually succeed.

PL/I, which came out a little earlier than C, and was likely known
to the C originators, by default does bounds-check on strings.

PL/I allows one to turn on and off, by statement or by block,
string bounds checking and array bounds checking. (Separately.)

(The defaults might be sysgen options, and some installations
might change them.)

Matching Fortran at the time, array bounds checking is usually
off by default.

(snip)
> The C language:
> 0. malloc doesn't zero-fill.
> 1. memcpy doesn't automatically bounds-check.
> 2. The standard library sucks when it comes to secure code.
 
> It's easy to write "bad C" because so much of the standard library is
> bad C. It carries a legacy of standards of practice that were
> instantiated when it was assumed that "everybody plays by the rules".
> This is why it's possible to double-free, dereference after free, fail
> to zero terminate, fail to check error returns, error returns occur
> in-band and often interfere with "good C practices".

One doesn't have to use the standard library. People could write
their own string handling routines that were better, but that is
rare.

-- glen

Thread

Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 06:31 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 14:57 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 15:04 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 07:11 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 15:25 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 20:13 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:18 -0500
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 20:34 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 22:47 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 15:36 +0530
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:34 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 15:18 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-03 17:42 -0800
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:32 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 23:57 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-03 21:13 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 07:22 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:32 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:54 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 13:38 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-07 08:27 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-05 09:26 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 10:03 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-05 08:53 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-06 10:04 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2015-11-05 21:06 +0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-05 11:14 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-05 11:44 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-07 02:43 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-07 17:30 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-10 16:35 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-10 11:52 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-11 00:48 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 21:55 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 19:14 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-18 03:40 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 23:01 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-18 09:00 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-18 09:09 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-18 15:35 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-18 21:35 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-18 20:38 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-19 05:40 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 22:55 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-19 19:56 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 23:40 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-19 21:05 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 06:40 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 11:37 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 12:09 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 12:52 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-20 12:20 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 15:34 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-22 16:43 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 21:28 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-22 20:51 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 07:26 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-22 09:42 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 09:59 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:08 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-23 11:57 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 16:06 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:26 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-19 09:09 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 02:29 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-20 12:33 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-20 09:26 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 13:37 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-19 14:07 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 01:38 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 18:43 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 12:09 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 01:48 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 11:16 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 05:04 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 18:18 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 11:55 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 00:27 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 18:57 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 19:50 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 20:06 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 20:46 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 20:56 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 04:58 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-21 04:59 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 13:26 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-21 14:38 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:49 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 22:56 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 04:36 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:44 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 15:59 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 18:33 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 19:19 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 13:33 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:42 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:17 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-20 14:51 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-19 08:06 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-18 15:40 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 13:57 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:56 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:16 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 22:28 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-23 21:11 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-24 10:29 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 02:38 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 13:54 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-10 10:23 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 11:21 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-11-04 00:58 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-11-03 18:26 -0600
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-04 02:06 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-04 14:12 +1300
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 07:02 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-04 20:42 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 08:06 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:25 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-04 11:49 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 13:46 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 21:58 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 23:37 +0100
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 07:55 -0500
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-12-06 14:23 -0600
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 15:59 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 16:55 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 02:29 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:48 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 14:11 -0800
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 00:39 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-05 01:15 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 02:02 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 18:31 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-05 12:38 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 18:24 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-04 19:37 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-05 13:24 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-05 06:47 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 00:35 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 09:55 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 05:02 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-06 10:18 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-06 05:57 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-04 08:32 -0500
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 15:01 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-03 15:10 +0000
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:02 -0500
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 18:13 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:16 -0500
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-04 09:38 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:38 +0100
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-03 11:58 -0500
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 09:13 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-03 18:08 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Nobody <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-11-04 04:49 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-04 02:22 -0800
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-04 13:28 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 08:39 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 10:45 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 11:05 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-11-03 18:09 -0600
  Is it possible C is the security problem? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 01:15 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-04 13:31 +0000
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 10:55 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-18 14:05 -0500
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? "D. Aaron Sawyer" <aaron@110.net> - 2015-11-18 19:47 -0500
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-20 10:43 +0000

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