Re: Is it possible C is the security problem?

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is it possible C is the security problem?
Date	2015-11-03 20:13 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87fv0m4z9s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	<c35d3887-3883-4e5b-bf3e-9d37137bdffd@googlegroups.com> <n1ahsd$2sh$1@dont-email.me> <fdfca5e3-40df-4f03-895d-636dd60e61cb@googlegroups.com> <n1ajhr$a04$1@dont-email.me>

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Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

> On 03/11/15 15:11, G G wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I wonder as the language gets better, well, changes, I know better
>> maybe too subjective, if the code of yesteryear should be re thought
>> and then written using today's C standard.
>
> It wouldn't make things any more secure than they are now.
>
>> Yes, I see your point, it boils down to the programmer.
>
> Take Heartbleed as an example.
>
> This is an example of a new vulnerability that was introduced (in
> 2012, I think?) into previously secure (well, as far as we know) code.
>
> The idea of Heartbeat was to allow TLS/DTLS to keep a connection alive
> by sending occasional "heartbeat" packets. Alice sends Bob some data,
> Bob sends it back, and thus Alice and Bob prove to each other that
> they are still alive. How much data? Alice tells Bob this, and *Bob
> believes her*! And that was how the Heartbleed exploit was made
> possible: all Alice has to do is tell a little lie to Bob, and Bob
> will send her absolutely shedloads of data in the belief that she had
> already sent it to him and therefore there couldn't be any security
> risk, right?
>
> So Bob does, say, some private key finagling, and then Alice sends in
> a heartbeat: "Bob, my heartbeat is DOG, that's 64KB", she says with a
> straight face. And Bob sends her 64KB of, for example, private keys.
>
> You won't fix this by fixing the language.

This struck me as an extraordinary claim, but then I calmed down and
thought about it bit more!  I think your reply comes from a position of
conflating the error with the consequences.  Yes, programmers will
always make mistakes, and the mistake that was made in this case was a
simple failure to check a bound.  That could happen in any programming
language, but the actual harm was done because of a

  memcpy(bp, pl, payload);

a few lines later.  The incoming request (pointed to by pl), and the
outgoing reply (pointed to by bp) are treated as un-typed byte arrays,
and data is copied from one to the other with no regard to the sizes or
types of the source objects.

There are many programming languages in which the error (the missing
test) would just be a relatively harmless logic bug because there would
be no way for a reckless request to a copy of data from one buffer to
another to actually succeed.

> You fix this by fixing the
> programmer - or, at the very least, by having white-hats sit in on
> code reviews.

I'm not sure we know how to fix programmers.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 06:31 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 14:57 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 15:04 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 07:11 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 15:25 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 20:13 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:18 -0500
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 20:34 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 22:47 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 15:36 +0530
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:34 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 15:18 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-03 17:42 -0800
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:32 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 23:57 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-03 21:13 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 07:22 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:32 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:54 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 13:38 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-07 08:27 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-05 09:26 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 10:03 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-05 08:53 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-06 10:04 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2015-11-05 21:06 +0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-05 11:14 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-05 11:44 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-07 02:43 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-07 17:30 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-10 16:35 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-10 11:52 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-11 00:48 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 21:55 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 19:14 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-18 03:40 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 23:01 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-18 09:00 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-18 09:09 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-18 15:35 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-18 21:35 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-18 20:38 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-19 05:40 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 22:55 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-19 19:56 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 23:40 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-19 21:05 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 06:40 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 11:37 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 12:09 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 12:52 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-20 12:20 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 15:34 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-22 16:43 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 21:28 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-22 20:51 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 07:26 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-22 09:42 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 09:59 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:08 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-23 11:57 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 16:06 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:26 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-19 09:09 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 02:29 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-20 12:33 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-20 09:26 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 13:37 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-19 14:07 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 01:38 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 18:43 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 12:09 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 01:48 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 11:16 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 05:04 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 18:18 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 11:55 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 00:27 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 18:57 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 19:50 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 20:06 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 20:46 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 20:56 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 04:58 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-21 04:59 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 13:26 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-21 14:38 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:49 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 22:56 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 04:36 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:44 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 15:59 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 18:33 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 19:19 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 13:33 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:42 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:17 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-20 14:51 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-19 08:06 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-18 15:40 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 13:57 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:56 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:16 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 22:28 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-23 21:11 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-24 10:29 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 02:38 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 13:54 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-10 10:23 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 11:21 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-11-04 00:58 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-11-03 18:26 -0600
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-04 02:06 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-04 14:12 +1300
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 07:02 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-04 20:42 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 08:06 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:25 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-04 11:49 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 13:46 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 21:58 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 23:37 +0100
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 07:55 -0500
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-12-06 14:23 -0600
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 15:59 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 16:55 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 02:29 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:48 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 14:11 -0800
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 00:39 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-05 01:15 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 02:02 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 18:31 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-05 12:38 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 18:24 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-04 19:37 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-05 13:24 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-05 06:47 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 00:35 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 09:55 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 05:02 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-06 10:18 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-06 05:57 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-04 08:32 -0500
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 15:01 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-03 15:10 +0000
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:02 -0500
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 18:13 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:16 -0500
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-04 09:38 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:38 +0100
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-03 11:58 -0500
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 09:13 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-03 18:08 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Nobody <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-11-04 04:49 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-04 02:22 -0800
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-04 13:28 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 08:39 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 10:45 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 11:05 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-11-03 18:09 -0600
  Is it possible C is the security problem? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 01:15 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-04 13:31 +0000
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 10:55 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-18 14:05 -0500
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? "D. Aaron Sawyer" <aaron@110.net> - 2015-11-18 19:47 -0500
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-20 10:43 +0000

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