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Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from
Date	2026-01-08 09:03 +0100
Message-ID	<ms969bFglcaU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <10jhgb7$3b0ui$1@nntp.eternal-september.org> <10jhgk9$3b3c1$1@nntp.eternal-september.org> <10jhihr$tp60$2@gwaiyur.mb-net.net> <ms6gvcF2kgjU4@mid.individual.net> <10jmd6l$ujg1$1@dont-email.me>

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Am Mittwoch000007, 07.01.2026 um 20:46 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:
> On 1/6/2026 11:47 PM, Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am Dienstag000006, 06.01.2026 um 00:47 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
>>> Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2026 3:09 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>>> Say to explain a 3d point in time we need (x, y, z, t), t for time.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a 4d point we need (x, y, z, w, t), t for time.
>>>>>
>>>>> t is in every dimension?
>>>>>
>>>>> For a 2d (x, y, t)
>>>>>
>>>>> For a 1d (x, t)
>>>>
>>>> Why not keep time in the dimension, [...]
>>>
>>> Again, this wording does not make sense.  Time, here represented by the
>>> coordinate t, *is* a dimension then *implicitly*.
>>>
>>
>> The word 'dimension' has different meanings, hence it is necessary to 
>> write, which meaning was meant.
>>
>> If we refer to space, the 'usual' space has three dimensions of the 
>> type 'length', which are orthogonal towards each other.
>>
>> This wouldn't allow an additional orthogonal dimension of space for time.
>>
>> So, we need a different meaning for 'dimension' and a different 'space'.
>>
>> If we add t to the 'x,y,z-space' we end up in what is called spacetime.
>>
>> But I would suggest a different approach and use complex numbers and 
>> assume, that time is imaginary and the dimensions of space real.
>>
>> An even better approach would be to use a construct called 
>> 'biquaternions' and assume, that the 'real space' has actually such 
>> features, as if it was a quaternion-field, where points have the 
>> features of bi-quaternions.
>>
>> This would allow three imaginary axes of time and three real axes of 
>> space, plus two additional 'dimensions' for scalars and pseudo-scalars.
> 
> When I would add a t to a vector, say (x, y, z, t), yes its confusing. I 
> would only use the (x, y, z) parts for the vector math, ect. The t was a 
> point in time for that (x, y, z) vector. So, say:
> 
> (-.5, .1, -.16, 0)
> 
> The t aspect is at say, a stop watch started from zero. It ticks. Now, 
> the same point can be:
> 
> (-.5, .1, -.16, 0.0000001)
> 
> well, the granularity of the t aside for a moment. However, we now have 
> the same point in a different time.
> 
> As time ticks by we have a shit load of vectors at the same point, but 
> with different non-zero t components. We can sort them based on t after 
> some iterations... ect. Its fun to do, ponder on. So a single point that 
> stays the same can have different t's. However, it does not mean that t 
> is a 4d space. No, its a 3d space with t. For a 4d space (x, y, z, w, 
> t), on and on. But it is confusing.
> 
> Actually, I don't know where to plot a 4d point with a non-zero w 
> component. One time I said just plot the 3d components (x, y, z), and 
> use w as a color spectrum that is unique. So, I can say here is a 4d 
> point and its a certain color. This tells me that the point is off axis 
> from the pure 3d world, aka non-zero w.


Look at this:

https://www.maeckes.nl/Tekeningen/Complexe%20vlak%20.png

(from here: https://www.maeckes.nl/Arganddiagram%20GB.html )

This is a so called 'Argand diagram' or a 'complex plane'.

And now compare it to this diagram:

https://www.math.brown.edu/tbanchof/STG/ma8/papers/dmargalit/project/pastpres.gif

This stems from here:
https://www.math.brown.edu/tbanchof/STG/ma8/papers/dmargalit/project/minkowsk.html

and is called 'Minkowski diagram'.

You'll certainly see some similarities.

But Minkowski diagrams are as flat as Argand diagrams, hence we need to 
'pump them up' to 3D.

That ain't actually possible and we need four dimensions (at least) of 
which at least one is imaginary.

This would end up in the realm of quaternions.

Unfortunately Hamilton's quaternions do not really fit to the real 
world, hence we need something slightly different.

My suggestion was: use 'biquaternions' (aka 'complex four vectors')


> 
>> I have written a kind of book about this idea some years ago, which 
>> can be found here:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/ 
>> d/1Ur3_giuk2l439fxUa8QHX4wTDxBEaM6lOlgVUa0cFU4/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> Hummm... Need to read that when I get some more time. Thanks!


Well, that 'book' ain't perfect, because it was the first thing I have 
written about physics. It's also written in English, which is a second 
language for me (I from Germany).

I'm also not a physicist and that 'book' was the result of a hobby.

But still I think, the concept is quite good.


TH

Thread

Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-01-04 14:47 +0000
  Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-04 15:41 +0000
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-04 17:06 +0100
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-04 15:08 -0800
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 10:47 +0100
        Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-05 07:59 -0800
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-05 08:22 -0800
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 22:43 +0100
            Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 00:00 -0800
              Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 09:28 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 10:04 -0800
            Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-06 10:43 +0100
              Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 06:51 -0800
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-06 09:22 +0100
        Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-05 14:10 -0800
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 23:36 +0100
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 23:45 +0100
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 23:49 +0100
            Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-05 15:09 -0800
              Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-05 15:14 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-06 00:47 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-05 19:40 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-06 17:29 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 08:48 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 17:29 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 19:20 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 23:20 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-09 00:03 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-07 08:47 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-07 11:46 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-08 09:03 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 08:16 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-09 02:55 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 19:55 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 22:34 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-10 09:24 +0100
                Lagrangian mechanics (was: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-09 12:13 +0100
                Re: Lagrangian mechanics Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-09 08:37 -0800
                Re: Lagrangian mechanics Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-09 09:03 -0800
                Re: Lagrangian mechanics Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-12 07:58 -0800
                Re: Lagrangian mechanics nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-09 21:17 +0100
                Re: Lagrangian mechanics Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-09 13:23 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-10 09:13 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-08 20:13 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-10 09:19 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-10 13:08 -0800
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-11 10:13 +0100
              Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-06 00:45 +0100
                Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-01-10 13:12 -0800
  Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-04 17:07 +0000
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-04 18:39 +0100
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-04 18:41 +0100
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Anthk NM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-01-05 20:11 +0000
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-05 20:52 +0000
        Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 22:36 +0100
        Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-05 22:38 +0100
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-05 22:03 +0100
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-05 22:26 +0100
        Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-05 22:55 +0100
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-09 14:06 +0000
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-09 21:31 +0100
  Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-04 20:46 +0100
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-04 13:54 -0800
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-04 14:45 -0800
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-01-05 10:18 +0000
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-05 18:32 +0100
  Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-06 09:06 +0100
    Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-06 10:43 +0100
      Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 06:50 -0800
        Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-06 16:12 +0100
          Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-06 07:47 -0800
  Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-06 18:00 +0000
  Re: Hidden dimensions could explain where mass comes from Richard Hachel <rh@tiscali.fr> - 2026-01-11 22:32 +0000

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