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Re: OT: Farewell Windows

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: OT: Farewell Windows
Date 2015-08-08 22:28 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <mq5om1$76b$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <8d106b9a-cb7a-4f89-a913-1dde4f129217@googlegroups.com> <mq3g7v$idm$1@dont-email.me> <2b6c8713-36cd-438b-a9d3-c18dde789f08@googlegroups.com> <mq4i8a$jf9$1@dont-email.me> <6f5508e2-ccdb-4589-9d10-a3fcbcce9949@googlegroups.com>

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visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
> There was a discussion a while ago on LinkedIn about how to teach Forth.
> 
> The Forth professionals did not understand that their teaching did not
> work in maker circles. They claimed to have written the best books about
> Forth ever.
> 
> They really did not recognize that there are different people in this
> world who understand things in a different way. It was not explainable to
> these people.

That's non-conclusive.  It wasn't explainable the way they tried.  Maybe it 
is not explainable at all for these people (quite possible; they think in a 
way which makes them unable to understand Forth at all), maybe you need some 
other method (also possible, they think in a way which makes the teaching 
material useless).

When I learned Forth, Starting Forth worked quite well for me.  I've heard 
it being dismissed for the comics and the "childish" approach, by people who 
learned Forth as professional programmers.  For me, the childish approach 
was good, as I was a teenager.  Reading a book also worked for me, no tutor 
required.

The current books from Elizabeth and Stephen are books for professional 
programmers.  They probably won't work for teenagers, for people who are new 
to all that stuff and who need explaining how computer numbers work and 
such.

> Same thing with saving in Linux.
> It is not explainable.

Is "File -> Save" really unexplainable to you?  How do you save files in 
Windows?

Probably it's unexplainable, because you can't explain what you try to do 
and how it fails to work for you.  I mean, a lot of people use Linux and 
they all can save their files; the GUIs look remarkable similar to Windows, 
so there must be something special to it what you want to do.  That you 
can't install Linux systems which require PAE and you don't have it is not 
about the "save file" porblem.  A PAE image does not boot.  Of course it 
then also can't save your files, but you don't get that far to make that 
question meaningful.  That OpenSuSE sort-of works for you, but is too slow 
is also not related to the "save file" problem, it's related to your old 
computer.

I've seen a lot of bug reports from Windows people claiming "it does not 
work" (for an unknown "it" and an unknown relation between expected output 
and actual output).  I don't know how to reproduce this.  Stephen Pelc gave 
me a lot of good bug reports for MINOS like "when I click on this button and 
then on that button, and then enter a text -> boom".  This sort of stuff is 
reproducible; I'm pretty sure Stephen tried it several times, and when it 
was reproducible, he sent me a mail.  However, he also gave me a "it does 
not work" bug report concerning the terminal windows in MINOS.  The terminal 
window works, i.e. my own try to get a terminal window works.  There must be 
something else which triggers the "it does not work", some combination which 
needs to be described.  Only the easy bugs happen always.

My theory is that Microsoft discourages feedback, and therefore, Windows 
users don't learn how to give feedback.

That's why I suggested the view-over-the-shoulder approach.  This works, 
because it doesn't require the "explain my problem" skill on the user's 
side.

> I won't invest a huge sum to buy a new computer only to find out that this
> problem will be still the same.

If the problem is you, then it will persist.  Given that you don't even know 
the prices of today's computers, you really, really want to keep your old 
computer.

> I prefer to build my own computer system, for people like me.

No, you already have the computer you need.  Every small deviation from the 
computer you have makes it less attractive to you.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 04:28 -0700
  Re: OT: Farewell Windows djc <ciesinger@gmx.net> - 2015-08-07 08:35 -0700
  Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 10:51 -0700
    Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-07 21:35 +0200
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-07 23:38 +0200
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 00:34 +0200
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 15:50 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:09 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:23 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 01:34 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:46 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 01:52 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:43 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 11:32 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-08 14:37 +0000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 23:04 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-08-09 09:52 +0100
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-09 02:04 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:33 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-08 08:32 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-08 22:28 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-09 04:09 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:52 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:53 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-10 01:15 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 20:46 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 17:56 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 00:41 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:44 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:53 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-08-09 15:50 -1000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-09 19:26 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-10 07:41 +0000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-10 06:30 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-10 06:30 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 05:02 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-10 21:45 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-11 02:20 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-11 08:30 +0100
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-08-16 12:59 +1000
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-17 00:01 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-17 18:45 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 23:23 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 08:35 +0200
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-08 00:10 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 09:52 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 01:13 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:45 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:26 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-10 01:12 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 04:41 -0400
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:20 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-10 00:40 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 19:49 -0400
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-10 02:09 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-09 20:51 -0400
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-08-08 02:59 -0400
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-07 16:38 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-08 01:51 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2015-08-08 07:46 +0300
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-08-07 22:49 -0700
    Re: OT: Farewell Windows humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-08-10 23:28 -0700
      Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 02:24 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 03:10 -0700
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 13:57 +0200
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 05:12 -0700
          Re: OT: Farewell Windows Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-08-11 15:17 +0200
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 08:04 -0700
              Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 22:04 +0200
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 05:42 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-08-12 08:33 -0500
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:21 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:47 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:06 -0700
                Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:07 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-08-11 08:07 -0700
            Re: OT: Farewell Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-11 21:58 +0200
        Re: OT: Farewell Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-11 13:11 +0000

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