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Re: counting bytes

From Bartc <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: counting bytes
Date 2015-07-30 22:04 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <mpe3er$1es$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (15 earlier) <mouuqj$erh$1@dont-email.me> <%CNsx.310016$Pb6.253583@fx04.iad> <55B3BCA6.20408@verizon.net> <kKPsx.135439$gG6.86658@fx31.iad> <kfnr3npcv7u.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>

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On 30/07/2015 20:16, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:

>>
>> If sizeof(tiny_t) doesn't return a size_t but some other type (the
>> idea here isn't a 'floating point' type, but more likely a scaled
>> type with a fixed and limited fraction) it might be possible to
>> work out rules to make it a conforming extension, but I am not so
>> sure.  There likely will be some surprises.  Some questions, will
>> void* be able to hold a tiny_t* (and round trip a value), or do we
>> need another extension to create an extended equivalent of void
>> with the extra information needed?  I suppose also that converting
>> this extended size_t to a size_t (for example to call malloc) will
>> round any fractions up, I would need to think about this longer to
>> make sure that there aren't other situations where you really want
>> it to round down!  One case where you would need to be very
>> careful is using things like memset on an array of tiny_t,
>> especially if we want to clear an odd number of elements, it won't
>> work right.  [snip]
>
> I guess I should have posted an outline of some sort to explain
> some of the details.  Let me do that here.
>
> Pointers all have bit-level [addressability].  No extension is
> needed to do this, it's just part of the representation that
> falls under an implementation's purview anyway.

No, you can't just brush these details under the carpet, or make it 
someone else's problem.

On the vast majority of computer systems, pointers have 8-bit 
addressability at best.

> The types size_t and ptrdiff_t have a few extra bits to be able
> to represent fractional values.  All fractional values are
> tecnically trap representations.  Fractional values add and
> subtract appropriately, multiply appropriately, divide
> appropriately for denominators that would produce a multiple of
> the smallest positive fractional value, and a bit to remember
> their "fractionalness".  No extension is needed for any of these
> choices, they all fall under the implementation's purview for
> representation and for undefined behavior, which happens if a
> fractional size_t or ptrdiff_t is ever loaded.  In necessary
> size_t and ptrdiff_t are respectively uintmax_t and intmax_t
> so that any operations take place in types that can handle
> fractionalness appropriately.  (There are other ways of doing
> that, this way is just the easiest to explain.)
....
> Does this all make sense?  Is there anything else that needs
> explaining?

On 64-bit systems, they will have the spare capacity to store the extra 
range needed by size_t and for pointers; 32-bit systems won't. But on 
both there will be extra overheads to deal with those pesky extra bits 
which will have to be encoded in some unusual way even if the space is 
there for them.

(I think that sub-char types are special enough that they can treated 
apart. So sizeof(), size_t, char*, void*, ptrdiff etc work as normal and 
at full efficiency.

For sub-char types, there can be a special set of types and operators, 
such as bitsizeof(), bitsize_t, T* (where T is sub-char), and so on.

Void* is a little tricky because you don't want that doubling in size 
(as will happen on some systems), just to accommodate some 4-bit char 
type or whatever. So I would use bitvoid* (not necessarily with that 
name...).)

-- 
Bartc

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counting bytes bilsch01 <king621@comcast.net> - 2015-06-06 04:58 -0700
  Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-06 13:05 +0100
    Re: counting bytes bilsch01 <king621@comcast.net> - 2015-06-06 05:24 -0700
      Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-06 05:41 -0700
        Re: counting bytes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-06 14:00 +0100
      Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-06 13:52 +0100
      Re: counting bytes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-06-06 10:27 -0400
        Re: counting bytes jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2015-06-06 22:31 +0000
          THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO bilsch01 <king621@comcast.net> - 2015-06-06 23:35 -0700
            Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-07 10:08 +0100
              Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-07 09:22 -0700
                Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-07 18:07 +0100
                Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-08 04:03 -0700
                Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 08:12 -0700
            Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-07 08:01 -0700
          Re: counting bytes gordonb.3gcai@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2015-06-07 05:02 -0500
          Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-07 15:32 +0200
            Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-07 12:48 -0700
              Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-07 23:05 +0200
                Re: counting bytes Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-07 22:17 +0100
                Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-07 23:49 +0200
                Re: counting bytes Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-07 23:37 +0100
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 08:25 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 08:21 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-11 13:54 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 06:33 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-20 09:51 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-24 09:49 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-24 12:26 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 11:16 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-30 23:15 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:07 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-02 14:31 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-09 05:31 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-09 17:09 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 09:58 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-05 19:29 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-06 14:38 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-06 17:46 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-07 23:50 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-09-06 22:00 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-07 23:24 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-24 20:03 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-24 22:13 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 02:22 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-25 11:39 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 09:48 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-25 14:04 -0500
                Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 14:22 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 11:07 -0400
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-25 12:43 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 13:32 -0400
                Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-25 20:14 +0000
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-25 17:24 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 14:42 -0700
                Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-25 23:02 +0000
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-25 19:17 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 16:37 -0700
                Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-26 06:10 +0000
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-26 08:31 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 21:32 +0100
                Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-31 13:25 +0000
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 11:31 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-31 11:30 -0700
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 14:29 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-31 12:14 -0700
                Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 17:39 -0700
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 23:32 -0400
                Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 16:41 -0700
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-01 20:23 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-31 11:01 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 19:42 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 12:16 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 22:04 +0100
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:10 -0700
                Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-25 19:10 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 22:16 -0400
                Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-25 19:46 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 11:52 -0700
                Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-31 08:51 +0000
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:19 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-01 09:39 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-01 13:06 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-01 20:43 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:52 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-02 15:14 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-09 07:54 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-09 16:43 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 10:48 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-11 17:50 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 06:36 -0700
                Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-20 15:14 +0000
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-24 09:38 -0700
                Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-25 19:12 +0000
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 12:18 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-11 17:03 -0700
                Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-12 00:15 +0000
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-11 17:42 -0700
                Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-12 02:46 +0000
                Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-12 12:33 -0400
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 06:48 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-20 11:18 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-24 09:58 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-24 11:14 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 11:02 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-30 13:10 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-01 10:53 -0700
                Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-07 14:46 -0700
                Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-08 09:05 +0200
  Re: counting bytes Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-06 05:06 -0700
  Re: counting bytes bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 00:58 +0200
    Re: counting bytes bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 01:00 +0200

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