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Re: Sequence points and commit to memory

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Sequence points and commit to memory
Date 2015-05-19 18:42 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <mjfp31$vgu$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <mj8t7s$2rm$1@dont-email.me> <mjdoqe$gdj$1@dont-email.me> <555A6DE5.2010303@verizon.net> <mjenju$353$1@dont-email.me> <555B5F39.1050807@verizon.net>

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On 19/05/15 18:05, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 05/19/2015 03:10 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 19/05/15 00:55, James Kuyper wrote:
>>> On 05/18/2015 06:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> You are missing the "as-if" rule.  Yes, there are sequence points at the
>>>> end of every statement.  But the compiler only has to honour them to the
>>>> extent that the externally visible effects of the code are "as if" it
>>>> had honoured them slavishly.
>>>
>>> So, why do you care? If you can write strictly conforming code whose
>>> behavior would otherwise depend upon whether or not the compiler
>>> performed a given optimization, then the as-if rule can not be used to
>>> justify the optimization.
>>>
>>
>> The problem is that James had written code where the correctness of the
>> algorithm (i.e., the programmer's idea of correctness and order) depends
>> on an ordering that is not guaranteed by the rules of C.  Your comment
>> about sequence points makes it look like sequence points fully determine
>> ordering of statements in C, and that is simply wrong - they determine
>> only the "as-if" ordering of the virtual machine, not the real-world
>> ordering as run by the processor.  And James' code requires certain
>> ordering on the processor.  To specify that, he needs something stronger
>> than sequence points - and in C, that "something" is "volatile".
>
> Sequence points don't fully determine the ordering of statements in C, I
> never suggested otherwise. They don't even fully determine the "as-if"
> ordering, as you call it: in a()+b(), the two function calls can be
> evaluated in either order - a conforming implementation must produce
> results "as-if" one of those two orders were followed, but it's free to
> choose either one. Also, the standard has always allowed for signal
> handlers, and C2011 adds support for multi-threaded code, so a fully
> conforming implementation of C can choose from a large number of
> different "as-if" orders.
>
> However, the subject of this thread has, from the beginning, been the
> guarantees provided by the standard about two expressions separated by a
> sequence point where the standard does guarantee the order of the two
> sub-expressions. Using the new terms introduced in C2011, that means
> that one expression is "sequenced after" (5.1.2.3p3) the other.
>
> Now, you're right that it's only the as-if ordering that is guaranteed
> by the standard. But, when one expression is, per the standard,
> "sequenced after" another expression, the as-if ordering should be all
> that matters, as far as strictly-conforming code is concerned, because
> the "as-if" ordering is effectively the only ordering that can be seen
> by such code, even if the actual ordering is quite different. If you
> insert debugging fprintf()s in various locations in the code, and send
> them to an unbuffered stream, the data received by that stream must
> match the "as-if" order, even if the actual order in which the relevant
> expressions were executed is quite different.
>

What you write here is entirely correct - but it is mostly beside the 
point.  The thread has not been about the "as-if" ordering given by 
sequence points, but the /real/ ordering as seen by interrupt functions. 
  In James' original point, he was wondering if sequence points give 
guarantees about when an assignment actually causes a value to be 
written to memory (since his interrupt routine will see the value in 
memory, but not a value waiting in a register).  Sequence points are 
close to irrelevant here - they only matter in how they give an order to 
volatile accesses and other /visible/ effects (such as your fprintf's).

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Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 11:43 +0100
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-14 12:02 +0100
    Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-14 13:39 +0200
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-14 13:18 +0100
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-14 23:11 +0200
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-05-14 09:06 -0500
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-14 08:35 -0700
    Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 10:23 -0700
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-14 10:44 -0700
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 11:09 -0700
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-14 12:58 -0700
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-14 16:31 -0500
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-14 17:24 -0700
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-14 20:18 -0500
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-15 09:34 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-15 10:18 -0500
                Re: 'register' attribute (was: Sequence points and commit to memory) Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-16 01:26 -0500
                Re: 'register' attribute David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-17 00:02 +0200
                Re: 'register' attribute Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-16 19:29 -0500
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 09:52 -0700
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-15 13:27 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-15 10:50 -0700
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-15 12:32 -0500
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-14 23:23 +0200
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 09:42 -0700
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-15 13:13 -0400
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 08:32 -0700
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-15 10:35 -0700
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-15 11:08 -0700
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-15 16:40 -0500
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 08:48 -0700
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 21:46 +0100
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 08:56 -0700
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 19:35 +0100
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 09:49 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:04 +0100
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-19 08:42 -0700
    Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 22:00 +0100
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-14 14:26 -0700
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 22:33 +0100
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-14 23:38 +0200
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 23:04 +0100
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-05-15 13:09 -0500
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 21:56 +0100
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-15 17:30 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 07:51 +0100
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-16 22:10 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 00:25 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 18:55 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 09:10 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-19 12:05 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 18:42 +0200
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-05-16 16:33 -0500
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 00:27 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 19:05 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-19 00:09 +0000
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-19 01:11 +0100
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-23 07:02 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 23:21 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-19 06:25 +0000
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 08:58 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-19 23:20 +0000
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-20 12:31 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-19 12:10 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-19 23:24 +0000
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 09:05 +0200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-19 08:37 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-19 12:14 -0400
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 19:02 +0200
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-15 16:46 -0500
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-17 00:20 +0200
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-17 18:19 +0100
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-05-17 16:11 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 08:30 +0100
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 10:31 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-18 11:11 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 09:37 -0700
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-05-19 17:40 +1200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-19 01:31 -0500
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-05-19 20:38 +1200
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-19 10:50 -0500
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 00:46 +0200
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 00:35 +0200
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-15 16:42 -0500
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 07:58 +0100
          Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-16 02:18 -0500
            Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 08:36 +0100
              Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-17 04:31 -0500
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-17 18:24 +0100
                Re: Sequence points and commit to memory David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-05-19 00:55 +0200
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-14 11:26 -0700
    Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 22:07 +0100
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-14 14:22 -0700
        Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-14 22:36 +0100
    Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-22 08:16 -0700
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-22 11:31 -0700
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-15 00:05 -0400
    Re: Sequence points and commit to memory "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 22:25 +0100
      Re: Sequence points and commit to memory James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-15 17:56 -0400
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Nobody <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-05-17 10:04 +0100
  Re: Sequence points and commit to memory Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-24 08:11 -0700

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