Re: (test) ? a:b

References	(7 earlier) <878uk6x5nd.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <544a1016$0$13000$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.15139.1414171237.18130.python-list@python.org> <F3z2w.780891$AB3.764226@fx07.am4> <544b2f15$0$12978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date	2014-10-25 16:25 +1100
Subject	Re: (test) ? a:b
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.15157.1414214761.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

Show all headers | View raw

On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Ha! And yet people have, and continue to, complain *bitterly* about the
> non-standard ordering of Python's ternary if, compared to C, standard
> if...else syntax, and English.
>
> "If the syntax is like C, then people will use it, or else they will
> complain that the syntax is incomprehensible."
>
> Personally, I don't accept or agree with such complaints. Python's ternary
> if follows the same syntax as this English variant:
>
> "People will use it if the syntax is like C, or else they will complain that
> the syntax is incomprehensible."

Partly, I think this is a difference between programming and pure
mathematics. In algebra, there's operator precedence, but no order of
evaluation; in programming, there's both:

https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#evaluation-order

In English, there's not really a concept of order of evaluation
either. "People will use it" doesn't need to be evaluated separately
from "if the syntax is like C". But in Python, the if/else operator
mucks up the general principle that an expression will be evaluated
left-to-right, because it's evaluated middle-to-outer for that one
operator. Messing with internal expectations, even if it's following
some external logic like English grammar, will confuse people.

ChrisA

Thread

(test) ? a:b "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-10-22 10:29 +0200
  Re: (test) ? a:b buscacio@gmail.com - 2014-10-22 02:05 -0700
    Re: (test) ? a:b "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-10-22 11:14 +0200
      Re: (test) ? a:b Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-22 12:45 +0100
        Re: (test) ? a:b "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-10-27 09:01 +0100
      Re: (test) ? a:b Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 11:16 -0600
        Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-23 11:44 +1100
    Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 20:15 +1100
    Re: (test) ? a:b Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-22 10:16 +0100
    Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 20:27 +1100
      Re: (test) ? a:b Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-10-23 16:46 +1300
        Re: (test) ? a:b MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-23 11:12 +0100
          Re: (test) ? a:b "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-10-24 08:38 +0200
        Re: (test) ? a:b Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 19:04 -0600
          Re: (test) ? a:b Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-10-27 22:04 +1300
        Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 12:20 +1100
        Re: (test) ? a:b Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 21:05 -0600
    Re: (test) ? a:b Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-10-22 07:30 -0400
      Re: (test) ? a:b Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-22 14:41 +0300
      Re: (test) ? a:b Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 06:16 -0700
        Re: (test) ? a:b "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-10-22 19:08 +0100
          Re: (test) ? a:b Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-22 19:55 -0400
            Re: (test) ? a:b "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-10-23 11:50 +0100
              Re: (test) ? a:b Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-23 16:44 +0300
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 08:24 -0600
                Re: (test) ? a:b Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-10-23 16:41 +0200
                Re: (test) ? a:b Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-23 19:20 +0300
                Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-24 19:38 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 19:45 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-24 12:37 +0300
                Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-25 00:07 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 12:22 -0600
                Re: (test) ? a:b Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-24 21:46 +0300
                Re: (test) ? a:b Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 10:20 -0700
                Re: (test) ? a:b alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-10-24 20:58 +0000
                Re: (test) ? a:b Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-10-25 00:02 +0300
                Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-25 16:03 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 16:25 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-10-25 07:58 -0400
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 07:53 -0600
                Re: (test) ? a:b Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-25 14:11 -0400
                Re: (test) ? a:b alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-10-25 19:49 +0000
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-26 07:45 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-26 11:10 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-26 12:03 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-26 15:15 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 15:34 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-26 17:12 -0400
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-27 11:38 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-27 01:40 +0000
                Re: (test) ? a:b Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 19:19 -0700
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-26 12:10 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-10-27 01:55 +0000
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-27 13:28 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 19:38 -0700
                Re: (test) ? a:b Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-10-27 02:43 +0000
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-27 13:56 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 15:34 -0700
                Re: (test) ? a:b Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-26 10:53 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 11:01 +1100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-26 01:09 +0100
                Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 11:13 +1100
          Re: (test) ? a:b Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 06:55 +0200
      Re: (test) ? a:b Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-23 03:28 +1100
        Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 03:40 +1100
        Re: (test) ? a:b alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-10-22 18:03 +0000
        Re: (test) ? a:b Matthew Ruffalo <mmr15@case.edu> - 2014-10-22 14:27 -0400
        Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 05:30 +1100
        Re: (test) ? a:b Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-10-22 16:11 -0400
    Re: (test) ? a:b Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-22 12:41 +0100
      Re: (test) ? a:b alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-10-22 15:12 +0000
        Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 02:18 +1100
          Re: (test) ? a:b alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-10-22 15:24 +0000
    Re: (test) ? a:b Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 09:09 -0700
  Re: (test) ? a:b Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> - 2014-10-24 10:23 -0700
    Re: (test) ? a:b Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 04:27 +1100
      Re: (test) ? a:b Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> - 2014-10-24 11:31 -0700

csiph-web