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Re: Compiler tests

From "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Compiler tests
Date 2019-01-25 20:41 +0100
Organization Informatimago
Message-ID <m2h8dwfrtg.fsf@despina.home> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <q2ejd5$cor$1@dont-email.me> <m2r2d1gl4i.fsf@despina.home> <MaF2E.143089$9E1.86748@fx35.am4> <m2womsg3bf.fsf@despina.home> <vzI2E.90595$OD1.81016@fx27.am4>

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Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

> On 25/01/2019 15:33, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:> Bart
> <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>
>>> C is meant to be statically compiled, and nearly always is. Python is
>>> meant to be dynamically interpreted, and usually is.
>>
>> Bullshit!
>
> You have any statistics to suggest that the opposite is true?

My argument is not based on statistics, but on logic.

If we used statistics, we'd eat shit because more living beings eat shit
than gourmet dishes.


>> Compilation and interpretation are implementation strategies to evaluate
>> PROGRAMS.  They're totally unrelated to the LANGUAGE in which those
>> programs are written.
>>
>>
>> Classically, interpreters are used in the bootstrap process of
>> implementing a new compiler.  Again, independently of the language!
>
> That's news to me. I've used machine code, assembly, and a previous
> language. It was 30 years before I used anything interpreted for that
> purpose.

The technique is well known since 1960.



>>> What native code would it compile down to in either C or Python?
>>
>> Obviously, very different native code, since the semantics of C and
>> Python are very different.
> The point is, you don't know the full semantics at compile-time with
> the Python. That's why interpretation is more suited.

Once the semantics is established, be it at run-time, it can be
compiled.  Often, it is established very early, because fluctuant
semantics are hard to understand anyways.


>>> Or, through a vastly complex JIT process,
>>
>> And of course, there's a whole gradation of implementation strategies.
>> This is one more reason why trying to use the terms "compiled" or
>> "interpreted" to characterize languages is silly.
>>
>> Do you realize that your "native" code running on Intel processors is
>> actually COMPILED JIT into the real native microcode of the Intel
>> hardware?
>
> The interface to Intel and AMD processors is via its published
> instruction set. That forms one level of abstraction, which I loosely
> called 'native code' (since it varies according to processor, or even
> on the same processor).
>
> Programs that can be sensibly written directly in that native code
> might be 1 to 2 magnitudes faster (executing the same algorithm) than
> one using a byte-code interpreter with dynamic type-dispatch, itself
> written in that native code.
>
> So it doesn't really matter what 'native code' is. It might be C, then
> you are comparing a program written in C, to a byte-code version with
> an interpreter written in C. That C might then itself be compiled, or
> interpreted. But there will still be 1-2 magnitude interpretation
> overhead between them.

Speed is of no consideration here.

Notably, if you were to compare compilation and interpretation, you
could observe that interpreters can execute programs either faster or
slower than compilers can compile and the produced program executed.  It
depends on the case.  This is why both techniques of execution (and
more) are still in use.


>>> It should be clear that C code would naturally be compiled, and Python
>>> is naturally interpreted.
>>
>> Nope, not clear at all.
>
> No? If you had to write a program that was performance critical (some
> algorithm for which no library version existed), which would you
> choose between C and Python?

Depends on what "performance" is.

For example, if the performance is the total elapsed time between the
start of the program development and the end of the production
execution, you would probably choose Python over C.

If the performance involved getting correct results, you would probably
choose Python over C.


> Python would be slower even /if/ it was compiled to native code,
> because there would still be type-dispatch overheads. That's why it
> might as well be interpreted. Is 'bash' compiled to native code?

Yes, there are bash to native code compilers.  It is fucking not a
question of language!


>>> That is, if you interested in practicalities. (Your other replies
>>> suggest not.)
>
> I think the answer is Not.

-- 
__Pascal J. Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com

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Thread

Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 00:03 +0000
  Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-20 16:52 +1300
    Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-20 10:27 +0100
      Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-20 12:37 +0100
        Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 13:08 +0000
          Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 15:02 +0000
            Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-20 17:31 +0100
              Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 17:08 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-20 21:40 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 22:41 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 00:39 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-21 00:36 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-21 16:33 +1300
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-21 11:58 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-01-21 04:15 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-22 07:53 +1300
                Re: Compiler tests BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-23 01:15 -0600
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 12:00 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-24 08:13 +1300
                Re: Compiler tests BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-23 13:30 -0600
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 08:22 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-21 12:23 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 14:42 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-21 14:17 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-01-21 12:46 -0800
                You guys really, really need to get a room (Was: Compiler tests) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-01-24 14:05 +0000
          Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-20 17:27 +0100
            Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 17:19 +0000
              Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 09:44 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-21 12:49 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 15:31 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-01-21 14:38 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-21 15:15 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-01-21 16:05 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 16:39 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-01-21 12:51 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-22 00:16 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-01-22 08:43 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-22 12:31 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-01-22 17:49 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2019-01-23 11:04 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 11:18 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-21 15:35 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-21 15:49 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-21 17:42 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-23 03:18 -0600
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 11:11 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-23 12:18 -0600
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 13:56 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-22 10:55 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-22 12:07 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-22 04:29 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-22 12:52 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-01-22 05:04 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-22 05:18 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-22 05:45 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2019-01-22 05:35 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-22 15:10 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-22 17:30 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-22 23:02 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-22 23:14 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-22 15:45 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-01-22 17:57 -0600
                Re: Compiler tests Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-22 16:36 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 01:37 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-22 18:53 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 09:42 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 09:22 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-01-23 08:52 -0500
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 15:13 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 14:33 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-01-23 07:30 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 16:05 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 17:17 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 16:29 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 22:04 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 21:50 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-24 10:45 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-24 11:55 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-24 13:58 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2019-01-24 05:07 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-24 14:10 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-24 14:18 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-24 15:51 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-24 15:44 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-24 17:32 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-01-24 19:07 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-24 20:14 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-24 22:24 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-24 22:46 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-25 12:34 +1300
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 01:01 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-25 14:15 +1300
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 10:05 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 14:51 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Mateusz Viste <mateusz@wont.tell> - 2019-01-25 09:48 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 10:56 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Mateusz Viste <mateusz@wont.tell> - 2019-01-25 12:08 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 13:28 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Mateusz Viste <mateusz@wont.tell> - 2019-01-25 13:33 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 15:38 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Mateusz Viste <mateusz@wont.tell> - 2019-01-25 15:08 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 13:53 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 12:25 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 10:03 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 10:08 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 11:14 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 12:02 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 13:37 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 13:58 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 14:26 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 15:01 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 15:42 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-25 10:25 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 14:37 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 16:33 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-01-25 07:44 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 17:53 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-25 10:33 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 20:43 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-25 12:17 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 18:31 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 20:41 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 21:19 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-26 10:24 +1300
                Re: Compiler tests "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2019-01-25 22:27 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 22:39 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-25 18:46 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 12:43 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 14:37 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 14:19 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 15:47 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-01-25 07:17 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-02-03 07:28 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-02-03 12:35 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-02-03 21:47 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-02-03 22:57 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-01-24 06:47 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-23 20:22 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 22:12 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-23 21:54 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-24 11:41 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-24 23:17 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 11:11 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-25 12:04 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 14:05 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-25 18:40 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-25 22:36 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-25 22:15 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-01-25 14:48 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-01-25 14:46 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-01-25 17:48 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-01-23 08:23 -0800
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 16:41 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 16:18 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-01-23 17:28 +0100
                Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-23 20:23 +0000
                Re: Compiler tests Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-01-22 17:52 -0600
          Re: Compiler tests Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-20 20:17 +0000
    Re: Compiler tests BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-21 00:13 -0600

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