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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #31934

Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX
Date 2014-06-27 03:33 +0200
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <lojm4i$p5d$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <45f5f8f9-e2c0-42f1-8640-8108c55d397f@googlegroups.com> <1ad192b0-6c5b-462c-8d19-cad563dbf974@googlegroups.com> <557e2d7a-6003-42af-803b-5d21a00315bd@googlegroups.com> <87ceaa31-134f-4503-8a49-e07b4061b301@googlegroups.com> <29b02601-d43c-4f76-8f3a-02bb4855a09a@googlegroups.com>

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Andrew Haley wrote:

> Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> wrote:
> C++ has, very sensibly, moved to strings with a separate count.  As
> far as I know most programming language designers since C have looked
> at C strings and decided not to do what it does.

You might also look at Ken Thompson's and Rob Pike's Go.  It's notation for 
arrays and subsets of arrays ("slices") also follows the addr len principle 
(slices are even more, because they still contain the information how big 
the array was they were part of).  Of course that includes strings, which 
are in Go just an arbitrary addr len byte array (may or may not be UTF-8 
compatible, but certainly can contain zeros) - same as in Forth.

That means that even the people who were deeply involved in C's history 
changed their mind in the meantime.

Both Forth and C did it wrong 44 years ago.  Forth's strings were counted 
strings, i.e. the first byte was the length, and passed by address only; C's 
strings were zero-terminated strings, also passed by address only.

Forth changed to addr len strings during ANS Forth, C did never change, but 
C's library calls got additional addr len versions for many string words, 
though "addr len" here means "either zero-terminated or len, whatever is 
shorter".  Specifying the length twice and requiring a "whatever is shorter" 
condition is evil, as redundancy leads to bugs where someone doesn't 
correctly follow the rules (that's e.g. when strncat produces strings which 
aren't zero-terminated, and therefore the next zero-terminate use may leak 
information beyond the original string).  In other words: C's strings are 
broken beyond repair.  Forth did successful repair its broken strings, and 
other programming languages did follow that model (or independently reinvent 
the same thing - I have no problem with independent reinvention; my 
experience is that people often come to the same conclusions if they start 
from the same facts).

Go has some other Forth-like features where C is broken, like multiple 
return values (C's multiple return values through pointers are *the* second 
big source of exploitable bugs - addr-only arrays being the first).  Even 
the notation of those multiple-return-value functions is more Forth-like, as 
the return values are now specified *after* the input values.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/


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Thread

FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-15 07:06 -0700
  Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-15 08:48 -0700
    Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-06-15 23:43 +0100
    Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-15 19:44 -0400
      Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-16 02:21 +0200
      Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-06-16 09:26 +0100
        Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-17 04:06 -0700
  Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-15 19:39 -0400
  Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-15 23:01 -0700
  Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 09:27 -0700
    Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-17 20:12 -0700
      Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 21:15 -0700
        Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-17 22:34 -0700
          Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 23:11 -0700
            Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-18 16:57 -0700
              Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-20 05:03 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-20 14:56 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-20 17:03 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-20 17:53 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-21 10:57 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-21 11:06 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-21 13:30 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-21 11:58 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-21 14:22 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-21 20:13 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-21 21:54 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX bruce.mcfarling@gmail.com - 2014-06-21 22:31 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-06-22 05:31 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-22 07:04 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-22 18:02 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-23 02:53 +0200
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-22 20:29 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-22 13:40 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-22 12:08 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX november.nihal@gmail.com - 2014-06-22 16:03 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-22 20:30 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-26 15:17 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-26 15:51 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-26 22:49 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-27 07:32 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-27 23:01 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-28 06:59 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-06-28 08:07 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-28 08:34 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-28 07:23 -1000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-28 22:46 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-07-27 02:06 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-07-28 07:31 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-07-28 11:23 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-07-28 19:21 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-07-28 20:59 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-07-29 11:10 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-07-29 09:45 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-07-29 07:44 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-07-29 17:48 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-07-29 11:14 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX mhx@iae.nl - 2014-07-29 12:57 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-07-29 18:36 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-07-29 20:38 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-07-29 21:43 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-07-29 23:05 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-07-30 22:20 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2014-07-31 00:19 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-07-30 01:41 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-07-30 21:42 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-07-31 01:08 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-07-31 20:25 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 02:23 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-08-01 12:54 +0200
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-01 19:57 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-02 04:18 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-07-27 02:14 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX bruce.mcfarling@gmail.com - 2014-06-21 21:59 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-21 22:36 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-21 22:44 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-06-22 02:26 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-22 07:41 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-22 07:43 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-22 19:57 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-24 21:04 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-24 15:21 -1000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-25 18:21 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-06-25 03:16 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-06-25 12:08 +0300
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-25 14:08 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-06-25 19:13 +0300
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-25 17:14 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-06-25 21:03 +0300
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-26 12:13 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-25 16:14 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-25 17:27 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-25 18:24 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-06-26 03:27 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-26 17:50 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-06-27 03:13 -0500
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-27 12:30 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-25 03:46 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-25 16:15 +0000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-25 13:19 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-25 18:52 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-06-26 10:45 +0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-06-26 09:56 +0300
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-06-26 11:30 +0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-25 18:38 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-25 20:49 -1000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-26 17:54 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2014-07-26 21:53 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-06-22 22:22 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-23 07:31 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-24 17:05 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-24 20:55 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-24 19:52 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-25 13:09 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2014-06-23 00:17 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2014-06-23 00:27 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-23 07:45 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-23 07:54 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2014-06-24 00:56 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-27 03:33 +0200
          Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-25 18:20 -0700
            Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-25 18:50 -0700
              Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-25 20:00 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-25 23:02 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-06-26 10:28 +0100
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-26 07:56 -0700
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-26 07:59 -1000
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-26 17:33 -0400
                Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-26 17:26 -0400
            Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-26 17:22 -0400
      Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-18 22:07 -0400
        Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-06-18 19:28 -0700
          Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX mhx@iae.nl - 2014-06-18 23:09 -0700
        Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-06-18 20:02 -0700
          Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-06-19 18:28 -0400
    Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 21:01 -0700
      Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX mhx@iae.nl - 2014-06-17 23:01 -0700
  Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX jyf <jyf1987@gmail.com> - 2014-06-19 22:13 -0700
    Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX Roger Levy <roger.levy@gmail.com> - 2014-06-19 22:34 -0700
  Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX brelliott18@hotmail.com - 2014-08-10 09:15 -0700
    Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-08-11 14:31 -0700
      Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-08-11 23:51 -0700
        Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX brelliott18@hotmail.com - 2014-08-12 03:14 -0700
          Re: FORTH LITE TUTORIAL based on MPE VFX JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-08-12 03:51 -0700

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