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Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words

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Anton Ertl wrote:

> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>>Anton Ertl wrote:
>>
>>> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>>I could build a binary distribution, where unpacking and "make install" is
>>sufficient.
> 
> Yes, please.

I've uploaded binary distributions for x86_64 Darwin compiled with GCC 4.8.2 
(that's a non-XCode GCC) for both 0.7.3 and the current git head (the latter 
one into Snapshots).  Feedback welcome; the 0.7.3 "make install" reports an 
error, but that concerns the gforth.elc; otherwise it installs fine.  The 
bindist doesn't package precompiled libcc interfaces, that's something we 
should considder doing.

> Hmm, for chess we might check my theory of a gradual slowdown in
> improvement over time by graphing Elo ratings over time for various
> grand masters.

At least for young chessmasters, there are charts online:

http://chessaccount.wordpress.com/wesley-so-2/worlds-top-junior-chess-players-by-age-february-2011/

http://en.chessbase.com/post/wei-yi--youngest-2600-gm-ever-011113

The latter plots show how some of them developed after they were yount chess 
grandmasters, and the plot has two parts: the steep part pre-pubertary, and 
the much slower growth post-pubertary, with sometimes even a bump in between 
the two parts.  In other words: To gain 300 points pre-pubertary, you need 2 
years.  To gain another 300 points post-pubertary, you need 10 years, and 
then you are very likely at your personal peak level.

> So your claim (or your take on Gerald's claim) is that in, say, Java,
> you only reach the second level, while in Forth you need to reach the
> third level until you are considered to have learned the language?  I
> have my doubts.  I think mastery in programming includes knowing
> several programming languages.  Also, Java is a complex beast (not as
> bad as C++, but still), and it's API, too.  They are not made to be
> learned in three days, and a few weeks are not sufficient for a
> beginner, either.

Well, it's probably because the mainstream languages are quite similar.  10 
days ago, I had a meeting with several hackers about building a new 
Internet, at the TU Munich, and they had several students there.  One 
student told me about a course where he had two days to complete some task 
in Java, he didn't know the language, and the other students in his group 
didn't do anything.  He was successful at learning enough Java to complete 
that task in these two days.

And the Java API stuff is usually something nobody is fluent.  My approach 
usually is to read the documentation and then be creative how to use it, but 
then I fail - the Dalvik API is too buggy for that.  After failing, I resort 
to cut&paste the examples, which work.  The examples are usually the only 
way to get the API working (usually, there is some undocumented order of how 
you have to set up things and a bunch of ways to set up the same thing, of 
which only one really works ;-), so cut&paste programming is the only thing 
you can do.  And that's what most Java programmers do.

> Also, I heard about a professional programmer who AFAIK does not do
> anything fancy that he considers that he takes on the order of years
> (don't remember the exact time) to become fully productive with a
> toolset (IDE, compiler etc.).

Sounds more like the "you can stay amateur forever" part of the story: It 
takes some time to become a master, but there is no guarantee that you'll 
ever become a master.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Thread

+DO and programming without stack manipulation words anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 13:41 +0000
  Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-18 17:30 +0100
    Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 16:50 +0000
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-18 18:56 +0100
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 18:25 +0000
          Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-18 22:21 +0100
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-19 11:42 +0000
              Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-19 14:59 +0100
                Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-03-20 02:13 -0500
                Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-20 12:50 +0000
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-03-19 20:47 -0700
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-03-19 21:24 -0700
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-03-19 23:35 -0700
          Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-20 01:27 -0700
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-18 12:24 -0700
    Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-18 19:23 +0000
    Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-03-19 18:36 +0000
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-03-19 17:32 -0400
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-19 23:48 +0100
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-19 23:17 +0100
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-03-20 01:47 +0000
          Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-20 23:00 +0100
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-20 13:00 +0000

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