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Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words

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Anton Ertl wrote:

> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>>Anton Ertl wrote:
>>
>>> This year I use Forth in the first part of our introductory
>>> programming course beginners.  You can find the course notes (in
>>> German) on
>>> 
>>> <http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/lvas/pk/>
>>
>>Nice.  Two comments: Your students probably don't use a Nokia 3210, but a
>>smartphone, and can get Gforth from the Play Store.
> 
> There have been several questions about where to get it for MacOS X,
> and I could not answer that.

I could build a binary distribution, where unpacking and "make install" is 
sufficient.  I haven't checked with recent Xcode how well building Gforth 
works with llvm-gcc, I stayed with the last GCC Xcode version.

> Not sure what the comment about the
> Nokia 3210 is about.  The Play Store is about Android smart phones,
> right?

Yes.  That's the kind of mobile devices your students probably use.

> I think this number comes from the amount of time we have from when we
> can start to study a field until our performance lowers because of
> age.  That's maybe 20 years in most areas (obviously less for female
> gymnasts).  The first things we learn have the most benefit, later the
> benefit per learning effort diminishes, so at some point we declare
> someone expert (or master or grandmaster).
> 
> If we had 5 years until our performance diminishes, people would be
> chess grandmasters after maybe 3 years.  If we had 500, maybe after
> 300; but maybe then the development speed of the field would set the
> upper limit of the time for expertise; or maybe the field would
> develop slower, because there would be less turnover of experts.

One of the comparisons made was "composers", and it took Mozart and 
Beethoven about as long to become good as the others, who started later.  
And the other are these chess masters, where most of them start at the age 
of 5.  For sure they aren't "old" when they achieve master level at 15.

> But the comment is mainly aimed at people who have learned Java in
> secondary school and now think they know it all.

Gerald claimed that it takes a lot longer to reach "master level" in Forth 
than in other languages.  With those, it takes some weeks, and then you 
"know it all", and there's little further progress.  You may learn more 
APIs, but the way you use the language will not significantly change.  I 
think this property is a result of the large demand for programming 
languages which can be learned in three days.

The "master" level is usually not defined by an arbitrary time, but by an 
achievement of understanding, and it's the third level.  The first level is 
that you can follow the instructions of a master, the second level is that 
you can do independent work using what you have learned from your masters, 
and the third level is that you can improve yourself beyond of what you have 
been taught.  A grandmaster then is somebody who has a large unique 
skillset, invented by himself.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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+DO and programming without stack manipulation words anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 13:41 +0000
  Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-18 17:30 +0100
    Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 16:50 +0000
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-18 18:56 +0100
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 18:25 +0000
          Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-18 22:21 +0100
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-19 11:42 +0000
              Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-19 14:59 +0100
                Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-03-20 02:13 -0500
                Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-20 12:50 +0000
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-03-19 20:47 -0700
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-03-19 21:24 -0700
            Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-03-19 23:35 -0700
          Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-03-20 01:27 -0700
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-18 12:24 -0700
    Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-18 19:23 +0000
    Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-03-19 18:36 +0000
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-03-19 17:32 -0400
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-19 23:48 +0100
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-19 23:17 +0100
        Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-03-20 01:47 +0000
          Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-20 23:00 +0100
      Re: +DO and programming without stack manipulation words albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-20 13:00 +0000

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