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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #20147

Re: State and the standard ...

From "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: State and the standard ...
Date 2013-03-01 20:46 -0500
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <kgrlhb$cdh$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <alpine.BSF.2.00.1302281120350.94888@yoko.controlq.com>

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"Rob Sciuk" <rob@controlq.com> wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1302281120350.94888@yoko.controlq.com...
>
> I'm wondering if, as the arguments proffered in that other
> thread seem to indicate, state-fulness is generally considered a
> bad thing, then perhaps a future Forth standard should address
> the issue head on???  I must confess that I have always found
> [ ] postpone and friends to be confusing.
>

STATE seems to be critical to a number of words in ANS.  I.e., it
seems impossible to be able to implement them without STATE.

STATE also seems to be required to implement a historical Forth
interpreter.

Despite the standard recommendation to use POSTPONE , I found that
using COMPILE and [COMPILE] keeps things clearly marked in my
system definitions.  You need to know which is which in regards to
immediacy when coding a definition.  But, otherwise, I don't like
having two words for the job of one.  For user code, POSTPONE is
probably better.  It works 98% of the time without the user
knowing what type of word is being compiled.

For an interpreted Forth, [ ] just switch a Forth interpreter's
STATE variable from interpret to compile.  I.e., it tells the
inner/address interpreter to either compile or interpret/execute a
word.

For my interpreter, these set STATE:

  : ; [ ] QUIT

These check STATE:

  LITERAL S" ." C" QUIT TO
  inner_interpreter_routine_which_compiles_words
  inner_interpreter_routine_which_interprets_words

LITERAL is on my "To Do." list to have STATE removed.  But, ANS
seems to require STATE for S" ." and C" .  How does one implement
them without it?  STATE also seems to required in Forth
interpreters for QUIT : ; [ ] and the inner/address interpreter.
How does a compiled Forth implement two states, compile and
interactive, without STATE?  STATE or it's equivalent seems to be
required even for compiled Forths to implement two modes.  STATE's
use might be minimized, but it seems to still be required.

> Multiple CFA's is simplistic (and an implementation detail which
> should not be enshrined in a standard), but given the umbilical
> nature of modern Forth such an approach need not be wasteful, in
> the sense that code generated need not retain the extra header
> fields in run time code produced ... (or any headers at all for
> that matter).
>

CFA's can be completely eliminated *if* you have STATE.

However, if you decide to eliminate STATE, then you either 1) need
to break STATE-aware words apart into separate words for each mode
of operation, or 2) need multiple CFA's.

> [...]
> How might one describe a standardized language similar to Forth
> in such a way as to avoid the run-time/compile-time semantics,
[...]

_Everyone_ here is always touting Forth because it's so
interactive.  That's like one of the top ten if not the first
ranked ability of Forth.  Well, without STATE-aware words, you
can't create and use the exact same code sequence both
interactively and in a colon-definition.  That's only possible
with STATE-aware words.  It's a waste of time if you attempt it.
So, how interactive is Forth without STATE-aware words?  I.e., not
as interactive as it could be or was once...  When the use of
STATE-aware words declined, Forth words for each mode of operation
appeared, such as '(tick) and ['] or COMPILE and [COMPILE] etc.
With mode based words, to me, it's as if Forth lost much of it's
interactive "character".  Personally, I happen to like a Forth
where a Forth word works EXACTLY the same way whether used
interactively or compiled into a definition.  AIUI, that means
some STATE-aware words.  But, I don't like this because of the
interactiveness.  I like it because of the consistency.  I.e., it
works the same in both modes, and it's available in both modes.

> but still allow create/does type extensibility?  Am I missing
> something obvious?
>

How often is "create/does type extensibility" _actually_ used?  I
think that's what you're missing.  Forget that CREATE .. DOES> is
"one of the top ten ranked features of Forth" for a moment.  Let
the myth and hyperbole lie.  How often is it truly and honestly
used?  Can those situations be eliminated?  In my mind, the
answers are "very infrequently", "very infrequently", "yes".

AFAICT, CREATE .. DOES> is use a few times for certain system
definitions, and it's used occasionally for data structures, ...
It doesn't seem to be required or needed.

Someone (Alex?) posted a word count from their system for other
words recently.  Maybe, they can post the static frequency of
CREATE and DOES> also.


Rod Pemberton

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Thread

State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-02-28 11:35 -0500
  Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-01 20:46 -0500
    Re: State and the standard ... Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-01 19:33 -1000
    Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-02 03:33 -0600
      Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-03 18:09 -0500
        Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-03 15:01 -1000
        Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-04 03:06 -0600
        Re: State and the standard ... Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-04 11:38 +0100
  Re: State and the standard ... stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-02 11:34 +0000
    Re: State and the standard ... "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-03-02 13:47 +0100
    Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-02 14:07 +0100
    Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-02 12:38 -0500
      Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-02 15:50 -0600
        Re: State and the standard ... albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-02 22:11 +0000
          Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-03 02:51 +0100
            Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 14:56 +0000
              Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-03 22:42 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-03 22:02 +0000
                Re: State and the standard ... Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-04 00:19 -0800
                Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-05 00:14 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-08 16:34 +0000
                Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-07 18:04 +0000
                Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-08 01:31 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-08 14:41 +0000
                Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-09 17:04 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-08 02:19 -0800
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-08 04:25 -0600
                Re: State and the standard ... Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-08 03:35 -0800
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-08 06:58 -0600
                Re: State and the standard ... Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-08 20:57 +0100
          Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-03 11:25 -0500
            Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-03 15:13 -0600
              Re: State and the standard ... Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-04 20:55 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-04 15:17 -0600
                Re: State and the standard ... Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-05 00:27 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-04 18:41 -0600
                Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-04 20:49 -0500
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-05 02:59 -0600
                Re: State and the standard ... Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-05 06:58 -0800
      Re: State and the standard ... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-02 14:50 -0800
        Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-03 11:06 -0500
      Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 14:17 +0000
    Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-02 17:55 +0000
      Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-02 20:24 +0100
        Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 14:25 +0000
        Re: State and the standard ... Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-03 16:27 +0100
          Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-03 15:15 -0600
            Re: State and the standard ... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-03 13:41 -0800
              Re: State and the standard ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-10 00:51 -0800
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-10 04:35 -0500
                Re: State and the standard ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-10 20:56 -0700
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-11 03:47 -0500
                Re: State and the standard ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-13 23:48 -0700
                Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-13 21:01 -1000
                Re: State and the standard ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-14 00:23 -0700
                Re: State and the standard ... Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-14 09:18 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-11-21 14:26 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-14 03:34 -0500
                Re: State and the standard ... albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-14 11:25 +0000
                Re: State and the standard ... Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-03-11 01:51 -0700
                Re: State and the standard ... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-10 03:03 -0700
            Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-07 18:00 +0000
          Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-03 22:49 +0100
            Re: State and the standard ... "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-03-05 00:18 +0100
              Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-04 18:44 -0600
          intelligent COMPILE, and smart COMPILE, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-04 17:52 +0000
            Re: intelligent COMPILE, and smart COMPILE, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-05 00:49 +0100
              Re: intelligent COMPILE, and smart COMPILE, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-05 10:55 +0000
      Re: State and the standard ... albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-02 22:22 +0000
  Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-02 17:37 +0000
    Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-03-03 18:08 -0500
      Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-08 16:26 +0000
  Re: State and the standard ... Michael L Gassanenko <m_l_g3@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-04 23:08 -0800
    Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-05 10:47 -0500
      Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-05 08:11 -1000
        Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-05 13:44 -0500
          Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-05 09:26 -1000
            Re: State and the standard ... Michael L Gassanenko <m_l_g3@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-07 04:24 -0800
              Re: State and the standard ... Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-03-07 09:42 -0500
              Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-07 08:16 -1000
                Re: State and the standard ... anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-08 17:14 +0000
                Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-08 08:57 -1000
                Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-09 17:31 +0100
                Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-09 12:28 -0600
                Re: State and the standard ... Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-09 21:41 +0100
          Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-06 17:51 -0500
            Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-06 13:13 -1000
        Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-06 17:51 -0500
          Re: State and the standard ... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-06 13:12 -1000
      Re: State and the standard ... Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-05 18:18 -0600
        Re: State and the standard ... Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 08:22 -0800
      Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-06 17:49 -0500
        Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-06 17:56 -0500
        Re: State and the standard ... Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-03-06 18:17 -0500
          Re: State and the standard ... "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-08 04:22 -0500

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