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Groups > comp.lang.c > #93038

Re: Default values in #define

From Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Default values in #define
Date 2016-08-31 22:34 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <kfnoa48p4hs.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <ln8tvfczff.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <nq277p$4sb$1@dont-email.me> <lninujb133.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <kfnshtmp4nu.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <lneg54c0dt.fsf@kst-u.example.com>

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Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

> Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>>> On 29/08/16 18:28, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> The C standard is weak on this area - "What constitutes an access
>>>>>> to an object that has volatile-qualified type" is implementation
>>>>>> defined behaviour.  So I think your answer here is that it
>>>>>> depends on the compiler.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not what the standard says.
>>>>>
>>>>> N1570 6.7.3p7:
>>>>>
>>>>>      What constitutes an access to an object that has
>>>>>      volatile-qualified type is implementation-defined.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the question of whether a given operation is an access to a
>>>>> volatile object that's implementation-defined, not the behavior.
>>>>
>>>> That is really the question.  When you make a pointer-to-volatile
>>>> using a cast, and access that, is it a volatile access or not?  [...]

As I read the Standard (and tacitly said earlier), it is.

>>> My point is that you incorrectly introduce the phrase
>>> "implementation defined behaviour".  It's not the *behavior* that's
>>> implementation-defined, it's the determination of what constitutes
>>> an access.
>>
>> How this is phrased makes it hard to know what you mean.  Let me
>> try to break this down, as I understand what the Standard is
>> saying.
>>
>> Which C constructs require a "volatile access" is exactly defined
>> by the ISO standard.  They are precisely those expressions whose
>> evaluations cause an access (either reading or writing), and
>> whose type is volatile-qualified.  This aspect is not affected
>> by 6.7.3p7.
>
> That's not how I interpret(ed) it.  [...]  I was (somewhat
> vaguely) thinking that an implementation is still allowed to
> optimize away some apparent accesses to volatile objects.  Which,
> now that I think about it, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Your comments do a great job of clarifying both viewpoints.  I
have almost nothing to add, except on an up-thread point above
that I missed earlier, and to agree/amplify on your comment next.

>> What is to be done to effect, or carry out, a volatile-qualified
>> access is what must be defined by each implementation. [...] This
>> aspect, "how a volatile-access is to be carried out", is exactly
>> what an implementation must define (and document) under 6.7.3p7.
>>
>> The Standard isn't very good at spelling this out, but discussion
>> in the Rationale document makes it all fairly clear (as usual,
>> IMO).
>
> Now that I think about it, your interpretation makes more sense
> than mine (though I still think mine is more strongly suggested by
> the wording).  As you point out, the Rationale is clear on this:
>
>     No cacheing through this lvalue:  each operation in the abstract
>     semantics must be performed (that is, no cacheing assumptions may be
>     made, since the location is not guaranteed to contain any previous
>     value).
>
> though it doesn't discuss the implementation-defined something-or-other
> of 6.7.3p7.
>
> Perhaps the word "constitutes" is the problem?

Yes, 6.7.3p7 is ambiguous by virtue of how "constitutes" is used:
does it mean /what qualifies/ as a VQA, or does it mean /what
actions will be used to carry out/ a VQA?  And I pretty much
agree that the first of these (which corresponds to your initial
interpretation) is an easier impression to get on a first
reading, despite my belief that the second is what was intended.
That is unfortunate and would be nice to address in a future
revision.

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Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 14:22 -0700
  Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 09:36 +1200
    Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-19 22:48 +0100
      Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 14:56 -0700
      Re: Default values in #define Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 07:56 -0700
        Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-22 17:09 +0200
          Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:21 -0700
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:47 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:55 -0700
            Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-22 09:27 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 09:41 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-22 20:19 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 12:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 09:14 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:23 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-23 05:42 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:52 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-23 06:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:56 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:59 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-23 10:42 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define matt@godbolt.org - 2016-08-23 06:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:57 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:43 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 16:06 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 07:15 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-04 13:26 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-05 22:07 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-06 06:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-07 00:50 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-07 06:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-07 23:06 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-08 01:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-08 06:58 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 08:16 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 02:47 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 15:49 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 15:52 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 00:52 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-10 03:19 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 04:43 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 14:18 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-08 07:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-08 08:00 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 22:14 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-08 13:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:07 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-09 17:00 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 17:46 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 08:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-10 09:42 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 10:05 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 02:51 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 04:40 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 23:06 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 03:15 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-12 16:12 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 07:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-13 01:45 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-12 16:49 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 10:25 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 10:50 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 04:02 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-13 13:14 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 05:57 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 14:32 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 05:58 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 06:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-13 14:41 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 06:47 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 16:24 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 07:30 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 14:12 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 12:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 15:02 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 13:19 -0800
                Petty and unprofessional (Was: Default values in #define) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-12-13 16:46 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 09:04 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 20:06 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 11:19 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-13 11:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 11:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-14 10:04 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:23 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 16:10 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 18:54 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 18:57 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 02:53 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 05:59 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 12:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 12:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 17:09 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 18:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-13 05:25 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 07:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 07:35 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 09:17 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 11:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 11:41 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 12:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 13:13 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-12 20:22 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-11 14:49 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:10 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-11 10:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-12-11 16:22 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:16 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 13:54 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 14:09 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 16:11 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:49 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-21 05:50 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-21 13:10 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-22 12:56 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-22 21:11 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-22 15:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-23 11:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 20:07 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-24 06:25 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-24 10:34 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2016-08-24 08:50 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-24 15:37 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-24 11:58 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 01:27 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-24 22:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-24 23:38 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 10:44 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 07:29 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 11:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 12:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-29 09:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 22:51 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-29 16:35 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 01:44 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-30 10:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 10:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 21:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 12:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-08-30 22:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 09:17 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:46 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-31 10:29 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 10:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-31 12:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 11:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:56 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 08:17 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 22:18 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:34 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 00:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-02 05:19 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-09-01 11:38 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 10:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 10:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 12:50 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-09-01 21:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-02 05:37 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-02 08:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 22:20 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-06 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-11 06:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-02 08:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-02 10:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 15:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-25 08:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 00:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 01:00 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 11:17 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 04:08 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 13:45 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 06:09 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 17:11 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 09:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-26 12:48 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 09:50 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:01 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 10:57 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-08-31 06:09 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 12:24 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 17:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 17:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 21:49 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:51 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:46 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2016-08-26 17:37 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 15:05 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 10:25 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 16:25 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 18:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 13:47 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 19:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-26 22:54 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 21:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 18:25 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 09:11 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-27 06:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 10:16 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 13:17 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 16:26 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 13:10 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 16:35 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 09:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 15:38 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 13:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 16:42 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 17:24 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:21 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 08:12 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 15:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 10:53 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 10:34 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 14:44 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 12:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 17:19 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 11:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 10:33 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 09:51 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 22:46 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-30 16:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-03 17:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 21:36 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 17:30 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 12:39 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 03:57 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 15:34 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 07:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 10:46 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 10:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 22:52 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 07:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-01 14:58 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 02:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 08:21 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 09:05 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 09:15 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-02 22:22 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-28 08:41 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 20:34 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 09:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 08:07 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:08 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 15:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 17:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 17:20 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 23:37 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 02:19 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:26 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 04:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:56 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-04 15:43 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 19:34 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 00:51 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 20:36 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-31 00:39 -0500
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 21:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 09:22 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 11:36 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:26 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-27 06:34 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 12:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:12 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:10 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:18 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 10:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:49 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:13 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 09:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 08:59 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:43 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-29 22:58 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 07:14 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-30 00:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 00:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 02:10 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 10:47 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 03:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:38 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 04:44 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 14:00 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 18:55 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 12:24 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 16:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 16:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 06:27 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 23:09 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 16:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:35 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 04:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:40 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:17 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 06:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:58 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 09:09 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:16 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 02:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 12:49 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 09:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 10:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:43 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:29 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 16:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-25 10:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-25 14:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 14:22 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:27 +0200
            Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-22 23:13 +0200
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 14:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 09:32 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-23 06:13 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:22 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 16:13 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 07:35 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 19:08 +0100
            Re: Default values in #define Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-24 09:05 +0200
              Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-24 00:49 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-24 05:40 -0700
    Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-19 22:56 +0100
      Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 10:14 +1200
        Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 18:09 -0700
          Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 13:15 +1200
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 19:10 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 14:50 +1200
            Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-20 10:35 +0100
              Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-20 03:13 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-20 12:24 +0100
              Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-21 00:14 +1200
              Re: Default values in #define gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-08-20 14:13 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 05:17 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:08 -0700
          Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-20 14:06 +0100
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:14 -0700
  Re: Default values in #define Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2016-08-21 12:51 +0200
    Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 05:11 -0700

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