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Groups > comp.lang.c > #92951

Re: Default values in #define

From Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Default values in #define
Date 2016-08-30 10:06 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <kfnshtmp4nu.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <566c947b-91d6-43c1-86aa-772f6cf21e35@googlegroups.com> <nq1dfn$ola$1@dont-email.me> <ln8tvfczff.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <nq277p$4sb$1@dont-email.me> <lninujb133.fsf@kst-u.example.com>

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Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:

> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>> On 29/08/16 18:28, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>> [...]
>>>> The C standard is weak on this area - "What constitutes an access to an
>>>> object that has volatile-qualified type" is implementation defined
>>>> behaviour.  So I think your answer here is that it depends on the compiler.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> That's not what the standard says.
>>>
>>> N1570 6.7.3p7:
>>>
>>>      What constitutes an access to an object that has volatile-qualified
>>>      type is implementation-defined.
>>>
>>> It's the question of whether a given operation is an access to a
>>> volatile object that's implementation-defined, not the behavior.
>>
>> That is really the question.  When you make a pointer-to-volatile
>> using a cast, and access that, is it a volatile access or not?  I
>> /think/ the standard says the answer is implementation-defined - but I
>> also think that compilers would treat all accesses via pointers as
>> volatile accesses.
>
> My point is that you incorrectly introduce the phrase
> "implementation defined behaviour".  It's not the *behavior* that's
> implementation-defined, it's the determination of what constitutes
> an access.

How this is phrased makes it hard to know what you mean.  Let me
try to break this down, as I understand what the Standard is
saying.

Which C constructs require a "volatile access" is exactly defined
by the ISO standard.  They are precisely those expressions whose
evaluations cause an access (either reading or writing), and
whose type is volatile-qualified.  This aspect is not affected
by 6.7.3p7.

What is to be done to effect, or carry out, a volatile-qualified
access is what must be defined by each implementation.  This
might be, eg: (a) ordinary reads and writes; (b) ordinary reads
and "cache write-through" writes; (c) atomic reads and writes,
and atomic read-modify-write for things like += or similar; or
perhaps (d) reads and writes with memory barriers before and
after.  (This list is not meant to be exhaustive.)  This aspect,
"how a volatile-access is to be carried out", is exactly what an
implementation must define (and document) under 6.7.3p7.

The Standard isn't very good at spelling this out, but discussion
in the Rationale document makes it all fairly clear (as usual,
IMO).


> Once that's determined, the behavior might be either
> well defined, implementation-defined, unspecified, or undefined,
> depending on the specific code.

To me this just seems wrong.  What is to be done is determined by
an implementation-defined statement.  The Standard requires that
this action, whatever it is, be carried out.  The /consequences/
of carrying out said action may be unbounded, but that is not the
same as undefined behavior.


> One example of how this is defined is here (for gcc):
>
> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.2.0/gcc/Qualifiers-implementation.html

In my view what is described on that page crosses the line, at
least in spirit.  Implementations are not allowed to decide which
volatile-qualified accesses will be done and which will not;
they only get to decide how a VQA is carried out.  Not whether,
only how.  Not doing any access at all (the text doesn't say this
outright but it is implied) is not conforming, or at least not
spirit-conforming.

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Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 14:22 -0700
  Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 09:36 +1200
    Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-19 22:48 +0100
      Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 14:56 -0700
      Re: Default values in #define Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 07:56 -0700
        Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-22 17:09 +0200
          Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:21 -0700
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:47 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:55 -0700
            Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-22 09:27 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 09:41 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-22 20:19 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 12:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 09:14 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:23 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-23 05:42 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:52 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-23 06:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:56 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:59 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-23 10:42 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define matt@godbolt.org - 2016-08-23 06:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:57 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:43 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 16:06 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 07:15 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-04 13:26 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-05 22:07 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-06 06:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-07 00:50 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-07 06:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-07 23:06 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-08 01:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-08 06:58 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 08:16 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 02:47 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 15:49 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 15:52 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 00:52 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-10 03:19 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 04:43 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 14:18 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-08 07:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-08 08:00 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 22:14 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-08 13:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:07 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-09 17:00 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 17:46 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 08:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-10 09:42 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 10:05 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 02:51 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 04:40 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 23:06 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 03:15 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-12 16:12 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 07:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-13 01:45 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-12 16:49 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 10:25 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 10:50 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 04:02 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-13 13:14 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 05:57 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 14:32 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 05:58 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 06:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-13 14:41 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 06:47 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 16:24 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 07:30 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 14:12 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 12:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 15:02 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 13:19 -0800
                Petty and unprofessional (Was: Default values in #define) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-12-13 16:46 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 09:04 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 20:06 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 11:19 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-13 11:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 11:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-14 10:04 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:23 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 16:10 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 18:54 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 18:57 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 02:53 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 05:59 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 12:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 12:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 17:09 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 18:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-13 05:25 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 07:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 07:35 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 09:17 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 11:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 11:41 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 12:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 13:13 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-12 20:22 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-11 14:49 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:10 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-11 10:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-12-11 16:22 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:16 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 13:54 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 14:09 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 16:11 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:49 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-21 05:50 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-21 13:10 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-22 12:56 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-22 21:11 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-22 15:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-23 11:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 20:07 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-24 06:25 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-24 10:34 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2016-08-24 08:50 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-24 15:37 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-24 11:58 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 01:27 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-24 22:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-24 23:38 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 10:44 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 07:29 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 11:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 12:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-29 09:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 22:51 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-29 16:35 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 01:44 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-30 10:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 10:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 21:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 12:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-08-30 22:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 09:17 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:46 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-31 10:29 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 10:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-31 12:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 11:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:56 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 08:17 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 22:18 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:34 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 00:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-02 05:19 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-09-01 11:38 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 10:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 10:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 12:50 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-09-01 21:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-02 05:37 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-02 08:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 22:20 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-06 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-11 06:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-02 08:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-02 10:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 15:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-25 08:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 00:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 01:00 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 11:17 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 04:08 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 13:45 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 06:09 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 17:11 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 09:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-26 12:48 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 09:50 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:01 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 10:57 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-08-31 06:09 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 12:24 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 17:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 17:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 21:49 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:51 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:46 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2016-08-26 17:37 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 15:05 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 10:25 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 16:25 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 18:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 13:47 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 19:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-26 22:54 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 21:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 18:25 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 09:11 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-27 06:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 10:16 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 13:17 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 16:26 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 13:10 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 16:35 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 09:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 15:38 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 13:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 16:42 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 17:24 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:21 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 08:12 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 15:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 10:53 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 10:34 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 14:44 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 12:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 17:19 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 11:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 10:33 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 09:51 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 22:46 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-30 16:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-03 17:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 21:36 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 17:30 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 12:39 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 03:57 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 15:34 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 07:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 10:46 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 10:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 22:52 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 07:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-01 14:58 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 02:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 08:21 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 09:05 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 09:15 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-02 22:22 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-28 08:41 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 20:34 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 09:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 08:07 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:08 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 15:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 17:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 17:20 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 23:37 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 02:19 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:26 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 04:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:56 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-04 15:43 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 19:34 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 00:51 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 20:36 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-31 00:39 -0500
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 21:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 09:22 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 11:36 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:26 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-27 06:34 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 12:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:12 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:10 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:18 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 10:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:49 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:13 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 09:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 08:59 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:43 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-29 22:58 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 07:14 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-30 00:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 00:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 02:10 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 10:47 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 03:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:38 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 04:44 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 14:00 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 18:55 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 12:24 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 16:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 16:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 06:27 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 23:09 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 16:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:35 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 04:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:40 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:17 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 06:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:58 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 09:09 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:16 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 02:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 12:49 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 09:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 10:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:43 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:29 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 16:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-25 10:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-25 14:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 14:22 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:27 +0200
            Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-22 23:13 +0200
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 14:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 09:32 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-23 06:13 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:22 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 16:13 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 07:35 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 19:08 +0100
            Re: Default values in #define Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-24 09:05 +0200
              Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-24 00:49 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-24 05:40 -0700
    Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-19 22:56 +0100
      Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 10:14 +1200
        Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 18:09 -0700
          Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 13:15 +1200
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 19:10 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 14:50 +1200
            Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-20 10:35 +0100
              Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-20 03:13 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-20 12:24 +0100
              Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-21 00:14 +1200
              Re: Default values in #define gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-08-20 14:13 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 05:17 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:08 -0700
          Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-20 14:06 +0100
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:14 -0700
  Re: Default values in #define Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2016-08-21 12:51 +0200
    Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 05:11 -0700

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