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Groups > comp.lang.c > #108787
| From | Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? |
| Date | 2017-04-30 11:21 -0700 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <kfno9vd21ui.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <egqbglF7ke0U10@mid.individual.net> <kfn8tovtscq.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <o8prn7$h46$1@dont-email.me> <kfnfugx68d4.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <odle6s$u2e$1@dont-email.me> |
Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:
> On 24/04/17 18:08, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On 24/02/17 17:24, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 02/18/17 08:19 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/02/17 03:18, Ian Collins wrote:
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If then language stops me mixing apples and oranges
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's nothing so terribly wrong about mixing apples and oranges. It
>>>>>> makes for a rather delicious fruit drink.
>>>>>
>>>>> Until you teach into that bag of tasty apples and bite into an
>>>>> orange...
>>>>>
>>>>>>> or helps me to
>>>>>>> automate resource management, I'm all for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know what they say: Lisp is for people who think resource
>>>>>> management is far too important to be left to the programmer, and C
>>>>>> is for people who think resource management is far too important to
>>>>>> be left to the machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> And C++ sits on the fence!
>>>>
>>>> Evangelists annoy me.
>>>
>>> People who don't see a joke can be mildly trying too, but I generally
>>> try to put up with them.
>>
>> Yes, I generally try to ignore minor annoyances, at least for a
>> while. If they persist eventually they stop being minor and I
>> feel obliged to say something. That is what happened with Ian's
>> comments.
>
> It was a one-liner, and I think you're over-reacting.
Considered in isolation, I agree with you. If this comment had
happened without all the earlier ones, I wouldn't have said
anything, and probably wouldn't have thought anything about it.
It was the cumulative effect that caused me to say something, and
I should have made that clearer.
>>>> Evangelizing C++ is no more appropriate
>>>> here than any other off-topic evangelizing. I'd appreciate it if
>>>> you would stop doing that.
>>>
>>> He didn't start. "To sit on the fence" means "to be unable to make up
>>> one's mind", which is not generally considered a positive thing to say
>>> about anybody or anything. [...]
>>
>> That isn't the way I read it, but either way it strikes me as
>> bringing C++ into (or back into) a conversation for no apparent
>> reason other than wanting to bring up C++. And it isn't nearly
>> the first time he has done that.
>
> Your complaint is that he was "evangelizing C++". He wasn't. If you
> read it differently, then you read it incorrectly.
I thought for a while about how to respond to this comment. Not
sure what to say, it occurred to me to look up "evangelize",
which led me in turn to "evangelist" and "evangelical". Of
course most of the definitions pertain to religion, but obviously
I didn't mean "evangelize" in any religious sense. One of the
definitions for evangelical (as an adjective) was this:
marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause
and one of the definitions for evangelize (as a transitive verb)
was this:
To promulgate or promote (a doctrine or idea, for example)
enthusiastically
Considered in the context of his other postings here, IMO this
definition applies to the one comment in particular and also to
his behavior more generally. (Note that "enthusiastically" need
not mean "overtly".) If you have a different reaction that's
okay with me. But an absolute statement that my reaction is
incorrect? Either what you're saying is not what I think you're
saying, or you are making an allegation about something whose
truth value is unknowable (if indeed it is defined at all). So
my guess is that what you meant is not what I think you meant.
>>> Furthermore, Ian Collins has contributed quite a lot of positive
>>> stuff to comp.lang.c, and personally I am inclined to cut such
>>> people a fair amount of slack.
>>
>> My comments are a response to behavior, not character.
>
> Yes, that's reasonable. In fact, that was why I once felt obliged to
> killfile you, even though I saw you (and still see you) as a "good
> guy". I think it was a weakness in me rather than a weakness in you,
> but I felt unable to converse with you for very long without getting -
> uh, let's say "unrelaxed". And for me, much of the attraction of
> Usenet is that it's a good way to relax within a group of sensible
> people.
>
> In fact, "unrelaxed" is how I feel again right now - I think you're
> turning another molehill into another mountain, and I have no
> particular desire to follow you up the mountain path.
I'm sorry that has happened. For me it's much bigger than a
molehill, or I wouldn't have said what I did. I am truly sorry
the results have spilled over to give you discomfort.
>> Also I
>> think what behavior is expected should be the same whether
>> someone is considered a "good guy" (and I mean nothing negative
>> by that, despite the so-called scare quotes) or not. As far as
>> that goes, if anything the expectations should be /higher/ for
>> people who want to be recognized as positive contributors;
>> otherwise it undercuts the message when other folks are asked
>> to tone down various offending behaviors.
>
> Perhaps. Although I value topicality very highly, I /also/ value the
> cameraderie of some of the regular contributors to this group. Ian's
> contributions are often topical, mostly interesting, and almost
> invariably courteous. I value such people. Perhaps you don't value
> them quite so highly as I do? I don't know.
It's also important to me, and I wouldn't know where to begin
comparing the relative value to the two of us. Maybe it would
help you understand my behavior better to explain this: when I
say something like what I said upthread, usually it's because
some sustained behavior pattern is interfering with the more
enjoyable interactions I have with the group.
>> But let me return to your main point about cutting some slack.
>> I have done that, and then some. To be sure I'm being fair in
>> saying that, I reviewed a good-sized sample of Ian's postings
>> (to comp.lang.c, and no other newsgroups). Here is a summary.
>>
>> 31% C++ related (23% continuing, 8% new)
>> 10% C related
>> 9% meta (mostly comments about other posters)
>> 9% non-specific style
>> 9% tools (eg make, IDE's)
>> 7% hardware, code generation
>> 25% all others (random, general programming, platform, ...)
>>
>> (These results are for postings made in 2016, with values rounded
>> to the nearest percent.)
>>
>> Considering the above, I think I've bent over backwards to cut
>> Ian some slack.
>
> How can we tell, without similar statistics for other regular
> contributors, including yourself and myself?
Of course it's hard to know exactly, but don't you think your
general impressions give a pretty good indication? I don't
mean low order bits, but let's say the two or three brightest
lines in the spectrum of topics.
> (Frankly, I suspect that Ian scores rather better than I do.)
You do? I would be shocked if that were true. Your postings
here are predominately about C -- if everyone else were as
observant about topicality as you are I would have no complaints.
>> Do you think there is something wrong with my
>> making a polite request that he recognize the behavioral pattern
>> and make some effort to modify it?
>
> No, not at all, but if you're going to complain, at least complain
> /accurately/. He was not evangelising C++, and to claim otherwise is
> at best disingenuous.
I agree that his promotion is subdued and often not overt. IMO
it still qualifies as evangelizing, in large part because of
the persistence. I understand that other people may react
differently.
> By the way, why the two-month delay? Is that how long it took to
> compile the Big Brother statistics?
I was preoccupied with some things I was working on and also
some personal life events and just wasn't posting netnews at
all for a while. Then when I did get back there was a huge
backlog and it took time to go through that. Compiling the
statistics did add some delay but not a lot - the time involved
was roughly half a day but not done all at once so that was
probably two or three days elapsed time due to that.
> However you reply (if in fact you do), I will try to avoid the
> temptation to prolong this sub-thread any further than I already have.
Truth be told I had some trepidation before reading this
message. Upon reading I was pleasantly surprised. I
appreciate your good intentions and have tried to respond
in kind.
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What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 15:37 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 00:05 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 00:57 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 07:21 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 07:24 -0800
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Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 20:12 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-18 11:04 +1300
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Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-18 12:11 +1300
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-02-17 15:26 -0800
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Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-18 11:57 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-02-18 07:13 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-18 20:26 +1300
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-02-18 09:17 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 01:18 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-18 13:23 +1300
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 01:45 +0100
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Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-02-18 07:15 -0800
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Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-24 10:08 -0700
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Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2017-04-26 05:03 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-30 11:21 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-25 09:15 +1300
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-02-24 17:29 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-04-26 06:19 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 16:04 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 07:08 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 16:46 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 09:32 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 20:19 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 11:29 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-04-26 18:51 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-27 09:32 +1200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-27 11:01 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2017-04-27 02:23 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-04-27 21:31 +1200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-04-27 16:15 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-04-27 09:35 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-04-28 15:12 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-27 19:13 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-04-27 11:37 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-04-27 15:18 +0200
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 08:43 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-02-18 09:22 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-18 09:44 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-18 11:33 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-18 13:25 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-18 13:47 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2017-02-18 15:23 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-18 14:53 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-18 16:56 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-18 22:50 -0600
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 09:45 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-19 13:35 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-18 11:24 -0500
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-18 22:48 -0600
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-02-18 10:04 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-19 17:12 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-02-19 11:11 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-19 21:14 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 21:22 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-02-19 12:33 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-02-19 12:31 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 13:14 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 14:50 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 15:04 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-20 10:13 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 21:09 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-23 15:32 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-24 12:44 +1300
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-19 21:04 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-19 21:14 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-16 14:48 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-16 15:46 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-23 16:16 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-20 04:18 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-20 06:47 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-20 09:50 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 04:33 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 15:41 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-21 09:39 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 09:59 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? TickleMe Elmo <tmelmosfire@gmail.com> - 2017-02-21 10:22 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-20 15:49 +0000
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-20 09:43 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 12:31 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 03:33 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-15 12:47 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 13:06 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 13:15 -0800
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? "Patrick.Schluter" <Patrick.Schluter@free.fr> - 2017-02-18 12:36 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? "Patrick.Schluter" <Patrick.Schluter@free.fr> - 2017-02-18 12:41 +0100
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 09:42 -0700
Re: What if pre-processor was moved to parser? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2017-04-26 09:58 -0700
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