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| From | Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? |
| Date | 2013-01-14 18:52 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <kd25nb$6f2$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <kfnwqvpbq1e.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <kcefpr$kb1$1@dont-email.me> <kfny5fy9fp5.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <kcv4rr$bcq$1@dont-email.me> <kfn7gnfcz0l.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> |
On 1/14/2013 15:04, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 1/12/2013 17:52, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 1/6/2013 23:00, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Surely if, in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void somefunc(void) {
>>>>>> unsigned char c;
>>>>>> /* ... */
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'c' is permitted to have a trap representation due to its
>>>>>> "provenance,"
>>>>>
>>>>> It isn't. You are either mis-remembering or have misunderstood.
>>>>
>>>> Committee Discussion in Defect Report #260:
>>>>
>>>> "In addition the C Standard does not prohibit an implementation from
>>>> tracking the provenance of the bit-pattern representing a value. An
>>>> indeterminate value happening to have a bit pattern that is identical to
>>>> a bit pattern representing a determinate value is not sufficient to
>>>> allow access to the indeterminate value free from undefined behavior."
>>>>
>>>> That suggests to me that real implementation representatives discussed
>>>> it, and some of them must have argued that there is more to object
>>>> representation and value than a simple mapping. I suggest that there
>>>> are other meta-considerations (such as "indeterminate value"), some of
>>>> which are crucial to an implementation that wishes to have "enforceable
>>>> coding rules":
>>>>
>>>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1663.pdf
>>>>
>>>> 'c' above is permitted to have a trap representation without even having
>>>> that fact coded into its object representation. If I've misunderstood,
>>>> then I apologize. If you have further knowledge of the status of DR
>>>> #260, then please share! :)
>>>
>>> The type unsigned char does not have trap representations. There
>>> are no exceptions. Types that don't have trap representations
>>> never have a trap representation.
>>>
>>> In C11, accessing a variable like 'c' above before it has been
>>> initialiized is undefined behavior. But that is because C11
>>> added (relative to, eg, N1256) a specific statement regarding
>>> such cases, stating explicitly that the behavior is undefined;
>>> it has nothing to do with provenance or trap representations.
>>> Indeed, seeing that this proviso was added in C11 makes it
>>> obvious that DR 260 doesn't apply to cases like the example
>>> above, because otherwise there would be no reason to add it.
>>
>> Now I think I understand what you are talking about, here. I think
>> you are discussing a trap representation as if it is associated with a
>> type, whereas I was discussing it as associated with an indeterminate
>> value.
>>
>> " 3.19.2
>> 1 indeterminate value
>> either an unspecified value or a trap representation"
>
> Whether a given object representation is a trap representation
> is defined only the context of a particular type.
>
Yes I think I grok your model (but could be mistaken)... If I
understand you correctly, type T has _exactly_ 2 to the power of (sizeof
(T) * CHAR_BIT) possible object representations. At some time S during
execution, those object representations can be partitioned thusly: Valid
values, trap representations. Furthermore, different object
representations can represent the same value.
Have I described your model correctly? Does S make any difference in
your model? At time S, is the partitioning the same for all objects
with type T, or can it be different for different objects?
> The term "indeterminate value" is defined in terms of (among
> other things) trap representations, not the other way around.
>
Agreed.
>> We could probably agree that the value of 'c' is indeterminate.
>
> That may be true, but it has no bearing on what I said about
> trap representations.
>
I assume that you are referring to the equivalent of "An object with
type 'unsigned char' cannot possess an object representation that is a
trap representation for that type, as there are no trap representations
for 'unsigned char'"
>> So you would say that in C11, 'c' has an unspecified value, which,
>> once read, leads to undefined behaviour, and that it does not have a
>> trap representation, which, once read, would not lead to undefined
>> behaviour because of the exemption for character type lvalues.
>
> No. The reading takes place only when the behavior is, or might be,
> defined. In cases like this one the undefined behavior occurs
> before there is any attempt at reading (alternatively, instead
> of an attempt at reading). Whether c holds a legal value or
> not, or any value at all, is completely immaterial.
>
>> I would say that the value of 'c' happens to have a bit pattern that
>> is identical to a bit pattern representing an unspecified value, but
>> that reading it still leads to undefined behaviour (see committee
>> discussion above), just as a trap representation would for
>> non-character types of lvalues. [snip elaboration]
>
> PLease read 6.3.2.1 p2 again carefully. No reading takes place
> (obviously not counting the possibility that anything could have
> taken place because the behavior is undefined). What value c
> has, or whether it has a value, or whether storage has even been
> allocated for c, has no bearing either on what happens or how
> the Standard describes what happens.
>
Ok, I've re-read it. I don't understand what you've just said in the
last sentence and in the sentence further above it "Whether c...". I'd
better return to "We could probably agree that the value of 'c' is
indeterminate". Is this true?
I'll assume that you're uninterested in my explanation of why I used the
term "trap representation", since you know it to be one thing and I
meant something else.
I'll assume that you're uninterested in discussing potential
similarities between DR #260 and DR #338, since you've already stated
that you do not believe DR #260 is relevant, and explained why.
Once I've understood what you mean by "trap representation," perhaps I
can adjust my "Surely if..." accordingly.
Thank you.
--
- Shao Miller
--
"Thank you for the kind words; those are the kind of words I like to hear.
Cheerily," -- Richard Harter
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[union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Maciej Labanowicz <m.labanowicz@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 03:45 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2013-01-01 17:59 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:18 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 21:06 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:45 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 19:56 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 08:28 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-03 15:31 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 20:55 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 21:00 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-04 12:56 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-04 12:59 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-06 20:00 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 00:47 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-06 23:06 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 04:03 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 08:25 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 10:34 -0800
Re: Off-Topic: Irritating Posting Patterns Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 16:00 -0500
Re: Off-Topic: Irritating Posting Patterns Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 12:27 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 07:41 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 14:52 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 15:19 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 12:04 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 18:52 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 00:01 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 05:43 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-16 09:01 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 18:32 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-16 17:32 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 20:57 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-17 07:55 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-17 16:47 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 08:41 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 15:53 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 17:38 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 02:31 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:15 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-19 20:03 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 02:19 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 07:57 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 15:25 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-20 23:58 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 21:30 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 02:53 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 00:05 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 16:31 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 14:07 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 21:05 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 17:13 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 16:11 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-22 04:59 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 01:05 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-22 14:53 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:38 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:53 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-22 00:58 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:40 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 23:32 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-23 23:21 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 04:53 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-25 10:49 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:25 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 23:41 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 13:32 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 17:46 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 07:43 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 16:07 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 14:15 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 14:31 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 21:32 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 17:17 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 19:49 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-23 18:55 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-24 11:01 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 14:11 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:51 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-20 16:48 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 21:33 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 09:23 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 17:07 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 22:20 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 22:02 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 07:00 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-21 08:17 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2013-01-21 14:13 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 14:12 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 08:20 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:41 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 12:37 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 12:17 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 16:33 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 15:50 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 19:45 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 00:18 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:01 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:02 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-19 01:28 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-19 12:08 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-21 09:27 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 12:46 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:48 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-21 18:52 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 04:07 +0000
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:15 -0500
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 10:59 -0800
Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:34 -0800
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