Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ?

From	Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ?
Date	2013-01-13 15:19 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kcv4rr$bcq$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <kfnd2xldetc.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <kc5cpu$6af$1@dont-email.me> <kfnwqvpbq1e.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <kcefpr$kb1$1@dont-email.me> <kfny5fy9fp5.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu>

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On 1/12/2013 17:52, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 1/6/2013 23:00, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Surely if, in
>>>>
>>>>     void somefunc(void) {
>>>>         unsigned char c;
>>>>         /* ... */
>>>>       }
>>>>
>>>> 'c' is permitted to have a trap representation due to its
>>>> "provenance,"
>>>
>>> It isn't.  You are either mis-remembering or have misunderstood.
>>
>> Committee Discussion in Defect Report #260:
>>
>>    "In addition the C Standard does not prohibit an implementation from
>> tracking the provenance of the bit-pattern representing a value. An
>> indeterminate value happening to have a bit pattern that is identical to
>> a bit pattern representing a determinate value is not sufficient to
>> allow access to the indeterminate value free from undefined behavior."
>>
>> That suggests to me that real implementation representatives discussed
>> it, and some of them must have argued that there is more to object
>> representation and value than a simple mapping.  I suggest that there
>> are other meta-considerations (such as "indeterminate value"), some of
>> which are crucial to an implementation that wishes to have "enforceable
>> coding rules":
>>
>> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1663.pdf
>>
>> 'c' above is permitted to have a trap representation without even having
>> that fact coded into its object representation.  If I've misunderstood,
>> then I apologize.  If you have further knowledge of the status of DR
>> #260, then please share! :)
>
> The type unsigned char does not have trap representations.  There
> are no exceptions.  Types that don't have trap representations
> never have a trap representation.
>
> In C11, accessing a variable like 'c' above before it has been
> initialiized is undefined behavior.  But that is because C11
> added (relative to, eg, N1256) a specific statement regarding
> such cases, stating explicitly that the behavior is undefined;
> it has nothing to do with provenance or trap representations.
> Indeed, seeing that this proviso was added in C11 makes it
> obvious that DR 260 doesn't apply to cases like the example
> above, because otherwise there would be no reason to add it.
>

Now I think I understand what you are talking about, here.  I think you 
are discussing a trap representation as if it is associated with a type, 
whereas I was discussing it as associated with an indeterminate value.

   "  3.19.2
    1 indeterminate value
      either an unspecified value or a trap representation"

We could probably agree that the value of 'c' is indeterminate.

So you would say that in C11, 'c' has an unspecified value, which, once 
read, leads to undefined behaviour, and that it does not have a trap 
representation, which, once read, would not lead to undefined behaviour 
because of the exemption for character type lvalues.

I would say that the value of 'c' happens to have a bit pattern that is 
identical to a bit pattern representing an unspecified value, but that 
reading it still leads to undefined behaviour (see committee discussion 
above), just as a trap representation would for non-character types of 
lvalues.

So if I'd typed "indeterminate value," it mightn't've been clear that I 
was emphasizing the undefined behaviour of a read.  If I'd typed 
"unspecified value," same problem.  So I chose to type "trap 
representation."  But to have avoided disagreement, I suppose I ought to 
have typed something longer than that.

I don't know why you might think that DR #260 and DR #338 are so 
different.  Both cases involve the provenance of an object's value, and 
how the mapping of object representation to value isn't the whole story. 
  DR #260 happened to come 6 years earlier and happens to explain it 
pretty nicely, in my opinion.  My point way above was that since pointer 
representations are opaque (unlike the only other type of scalar), then 
it is convenient that "more" of "the whole story" _can_ be encoded directly.

But if you say that my use of "trap representation" in the two previous 
posts above is a misuse, I will not offer an argument against that. :) 
Thank you for clarifying and for [albeit indirectly] referring to the 
change brought about by DR #338.  (I hope.)

-- 
- Shao Miller
--
"Thank you for the kind words; those are the kind of words I like to hear.

Cheerily,"  -- Richard Harter

Thread

[union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Maciej Labanowicz <m.labanowicz@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 03:45 -0800
  Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2013-01-01 17:59 -0800
    Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:18 -0800
  Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 21:06 -0500
    Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:45 -0800
      Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 19:56 -0500
        Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 08:28 -0500
        Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-03 15:31 -0800
          Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 20:55 -0500
            Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 21:00 -0500
              Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-04 12:56 -0500
            Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-04 12:59 -0500
            Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-06 20:00 -0800
              Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 00:47 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-06 23:06 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 04:03 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 08:25 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 10:34 -0800
                Re: Off-Topic: Irritating Posting Patterns Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 16:00 -0500
                Re: Off-Topic: Irritating Posting Patterns Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 12:27 -0800
              Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 07:41 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 14:52 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 15:19 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 12:04 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 18:52 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 00:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 05:43 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-16 09:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 18:32 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-16 17:32 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 20:57 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-17 07:55 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-17 16:47 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 08:41 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 15:53 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 17:38 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 02:31 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:15 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-19 20:03 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 02:19 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 07:57 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 15:25 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-20 23:58 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 21:30 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 02:53 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 00:05 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 16:31 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 14:07 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 21:05 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 17:13 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 16:11 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-22 04:59 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 01:05 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-22 14:53 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:38 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:53 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-22 00:58 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:40 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 23:32 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-23 23:21 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 04:53 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-25 10:49 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:25 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 23:41 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 13:32 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 17:46 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 07:43 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 16:07 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 14:15 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 14:31 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 21:32 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 17:17 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 19:49 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-23 18:55 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-24 11:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 14:11 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:51 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-20 16:48 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 21:33 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 09:23 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 17:07 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 22:20 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 22:02 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 07:00 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-21 08:17 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2013-01-21 14:13 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 14:12 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 08:20 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:41 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 12:37 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 12:17 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 16:33 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 15:50 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 19:45 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 00:18 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:02 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-19 01:28 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-19 12:08 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-21 09:27 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 12:46 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:48 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-21 18:52 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 04:07 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:15 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 10:59 -0800
  Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:34 -0800

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