Re: Getting started with AVR and C

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded, comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Getting started with AVR and C
Date	2012-11-29 02:31 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<k96he8$m87$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <k95j21$otc$1@dont-email.me> <k95joi$qcq$1@reader1.panix.com> <JaGdnWuCkdH4wyvNnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@web-ster.com> <k960mf$ghq$1@speranza.aioe.org> <TN6dnaDoIqIhMCvNnZ2dnUVZ8v-dnZ2d@lyse.net>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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In comp.lang.c David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> wrote:

(snip, someone wrote)
>>> I would expect that gcc would be ANSI compliant, and would therefore
>>> promote both 16-bit integers to 32-bit before doing the multiply.

(snip, then I wrote)
>> Maybe I am missing something here, but are there versions of gcc for 16
>> bit processors, with 16 bit int? If so, then promotion to int won't
>> promote to 32 bits without a cast.

> The correct behaviour for C standards compliance is that when you 
> multiply two operands of different int size, the smaller one is promoted 
> to the size of the larger one.  Then the multiply is carried out modulo 
> the size of the larger one.  Then the result is truncated or extended as 
> needed to fit the target variable.

I haven't read the standard so recently, but I thought that was only
after the default promotions. Values smaller than int would be promoted
to int, then the size of the multiply (and product) determined.

If you multiply two 8 bit unsigned char values, is the product 
modulo 256? I don't think so.

> So the bit-size of the processor, and the bit-size of "int" on that 
> particular target, is irrelevant.  And the size of the result variable 
> is also irrelevant (this catches out some newbies).

> Given:

> int16_t a, b;
> int32_t c

> c = (int32_t)a * b;

> Then b is cast to int32_t, the 32-bit multiplication is carried out, and 
> the result assigned to c.

Maybe not completely irrelevent, consider a system with a 64 bit int.

> If you write just "c = a * b", then the multiplication is carried it at 
> 16-bit, then promoted to 32-bit.  This applies regardless of the 
> bit-size of the target - you will get the same effect on a 64-bit cpu as 
> on the 8-bit AVR.

Regardless of the target size, but not of int size.

> If your compiler does 16-bit multiplications when you have "c = 
> (int32_t) a * b", and requires two "int32_t" casts to do 32-bit 
> multiplication, then your compiler is very badly broken.  As Tim says, 
> badly broken compilers /do/ exist, so if you have to use them, then you 
> need to use two casts.  But I personally don't think you need to write 
> your code to work with broken toolchains unless you actually have to.

Now it gets interesting. When were the int_32_t and int_16_t added to C?

Seems to me that compilers only claiming a version of the standard
before they were added wouldn't have to use the same rules.

Consider that a compiler might have a int_128_t that it could add and
subtract, but not multiply or divide. Maybe it can generate a 128 bit
product from two 64 bit operands. Does the standard prohibit a 
compiler from offering those operations?

-- glen

Thread

Getting started with AVR and C Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> - 2012-11-24 17:41 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2012-11-24 09:55 -0700
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 10:39 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-11-24 18:03 +0100
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-10 13:21 +0100
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-12-10 18:33 -0800
        Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-11 12:34 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-24 12:44 -0600
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:12 -0800
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-24 11:28 -0800
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:42 -0800
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-25 07:01 -0800
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 20:14 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 03:18 +0700
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 04:18 +0700
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-11-24 17:09 -0500
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-24 22:12 +0000
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2012-11-24 21:01 -0800
        statement / expression contexts in C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 12:54 +0700
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 13:37 +0700
        Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-28 14:49 +0000
        Re: Getting started with AVR and C Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2012-11-28 17:53 +0000
          Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 18:05 +0000
            Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 12:56 -0600
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-28 21:45 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 15:55 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-29 01:35 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 01:47 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:24 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 01:18 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 20:07 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:23 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 11:01 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 19:19 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 14:32 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 11:44 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 21:23 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:15 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 09:26 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 13:22 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 14:10 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:16 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-11-30 17:36 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:18 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 10:08 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 00:45 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com> - 2012-12-01 08:00 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 13:22 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-01 17:33 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 17:43 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-02 14:13 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-04 20:34 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-04 18:25 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 07:55 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:11 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-05 07:52 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 11:02 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 21:28 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:21 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:05 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2012-12-05 23:22 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2012-12-06 00:00 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:17 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-06 07:15 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 21:52 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-12-06 20:59 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-06 12:38 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 20:39 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 22:31 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-12-05 16:32 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-05 17:04 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 22:01 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-12-06 14:05 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-06 10:28 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 16:58 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 07:34 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 10:55 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rich Webb <bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> - 2012-12-06 11:11 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rocky <RobertGush@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 21:38 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-07 03:49 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 02:58 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 17:28 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 11:55 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:17 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 12:36 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-11-29 16:22 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:36 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2012-12-11 10:53 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-11 14:53 +0000
                Unicode Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-12-14 23:25 +0700
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 14:30 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 12:24 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 18:02 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 15:45 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-16 22:55 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-16 23:20 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:27 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 11:17 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 14:07 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2012-12-16 03:28 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-16 10:40 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 02:31 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 03:36 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 03:55 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-11-28 23:24 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:37 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:31 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 13:44 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 13:22 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:32 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:28 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:20 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:07 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:17 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-11-29 18:25 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 22:46 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-11-30 11:47 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:38 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 15:21 -0500
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 22:26 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 17:32 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 19:02 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 18:29 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:39 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-29 00:59 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 07:57 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-29 13:02 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:19 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-29 12:03 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:39 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 08:04 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:17 +0000
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:19 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:44 -0500
          Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 13:15 -0500
            Re: Getting started with AVR and C Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2012-11-28 19:17 +0100
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:30 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:29 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 16:36 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:40 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 13:55 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 22:06 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 14:22 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 21:59 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-30 08:29 +0000
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-11-25 05:41 -0800
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rosario1903 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-27 10:21 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C dbr@kbrx.com - 2012-11-24 21:49 +0000
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C MK <mk@nospam.co.uk> - 2012-11-25 12:24 +0000
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-11-26 00:08 +0000

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