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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #10577

Re: Getting started with AVR and C

From mike <ham789@netzero.net>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Getting started with AVR and C
Date 2012-11-24 11:28 -0800
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <k8r75q$1uo$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <22t1b8pt63pcb3fks5ic03tsnlnhlm6ef1@4ax.com>

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On 11/24/2012 8:41 AM, Robert Roland wrote:
> I am quite used to playing with PICs and JAL v2. I use the PicKit3 for
> programming and debugging.
>
> Now I want to learn C and AVR. I thought it may be a good idea to do
> both at the same time.
>
> I already have a device with an ATMEGA168 in it. I want to write my
> own firmware for this device.
>
> I have installed the Atmel Studio 6 and downloaded the data sheet for
> the '168. Now I need a programmer/debugger. This is purely for hobby
> use, so I can't blow too much money on it.
>
> So, I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1. Which programmer/debugger should I buy? The JTAGICE3 is acceptably
> priced and appears to be very capable. Any reason to not get that one?
>
> 2. Where do I start learning C? Is there a good online tutorial
> somewhere? I'd also be willing to buy a book. Is there one that stands
> out as the best?

You say you want to learn.
Ask yourself why.  What are you gonna do with the knowledge when you get it?
That can have a huge impact on your path.  Makes little sense to
learn how to program an AVR if your goal is to land a job programming
a PC.  With the AVR, you're more concerned about accessing the
hardware directly.  With a PC, you're more likely to need to manipulate
a database.

Electronics is a hobby for me.  I write PC programs with visual basic.
I learned to write PIC programs with PICbasic.  Both languages just work.
They require very little configuration.  And lots of macros/subroutines
exist to do your bidding.  You configure it with checkboxes.

My projects have evolved to building hardware interfaces and real-time
stuff on a PIC that's connected to a PalmIII programmed in "dialect"
that does the heavy lifting and touch GUI.  I never attempted to do
floating point math on the PIC...that's what the Palm is for.
My development board has a character LCD and keyboard, but I haven't
used them in years.
All my programs have inline assembly code and are interrupt driven.
I've found that software simulation is useless.  Hardware debugging
that has ANY impact on the program flow is more disruptive than
helpful.  The result is that I need a device programmer that makes
it trivial to change the code and try again.  A serial bootloader
does that nicely.  JTAG should do that if the required pins
can be isolated.  I've found a logic analyzer helpful debugging
the relationship between some input and the failure symptom.

On several occasions I sought to learn C.
First with the PIC, the MSP430 and then Arduino.

The C language is not difficult.
If you can program in any language, C is a matter of
different syntactical details.
My difficulty with C was that C can't do much.  It's all
about the libraries.
Coming from a BASIC background, I found it annoying that
I couldn't even concatenate two strings without a library
function call.  On the surface, it's not difficult the second
time you do it.  The difficulty is determining that you need
a function call, determining which library contains it,
where to get it, how to include it with the correct parameters.
No big deal the second time you do it.  Pile up a dozen
of these decisions, then try to figger out why it don't run.
There are just too many unfamiliar development details
to start from scratch.
I also found that C took a lot more memory recall.  I kept
having to look up stuff that I hadn't used recently.

What the newbie needs is a set of example programs.
"Hello world" ain't gonna do it.
Code snippets ain't gonna do it.
I needed FULL programs that accessed the internal hardware
functions of the chip with all the little details,
includes, libraries and configuration details for the
specific toolset already configured to compile and run.

I messed around with the gcc microcontroller toolset.
Never found the libraries I needed or any full tutorial
on how to get all the tools installed and working.
Lotsa tutorials on pieces, just not how to make it
all work together.


A process that took one line
in PIC basic looked like it would take a LOT of work
in C.  Those built-in functions really simplify stuff.

Toolsets that claim to just work cost big bucks.  Available
free demo versions are an option if the limits are acceptable.

In my case, my attention span was shorter than the time it
took to get a FREE development environment up and running.
And it didn't see where it gave me any more capability
than I had with the PIC.  Motivation has a lot to do
with success.

I suggest you learn the basics of C on your PC.  Maybe
port to an AVR simulator.  Then you'll be in a much better
position to determine what hardware you want to buy.
Sounds like the long way around, but I bet you get there
faster and pull out less hair.

Sorry, I can't help with more info.  I gave up before
I found anything FREE I could use.  The devil is in the details...
the details that everybody knows...except me...so they're
not mentioned.

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Thread

Getting started with AVR and C Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> - 2012-11-24 17:41 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2012-11-24 09:55 -0700
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 10:39 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-11-24 18:03 +0100
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-10 13:21 +0100
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-12-10 18:33 -0800
        Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-11 12:34 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-24 12:44 -0600
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:12 -0800
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-24 11:28 -0800
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:42 -0800
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-25 07:01 -0800
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 20:14 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 03:18 +0700
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 04:18 +0700
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-11-24 17:09 -0500
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-24 22:12 +0000
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2012-11-24 21:01 -0800
        statement / expression contexts in C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 12:54 +0700
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 13:37 +0700
        Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-28 14:49 +0000
        Re: Getting started with AVR and C Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2012-11-28 17:53 +0000
          Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 18:05 +0000
            Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 12:56 -0600
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-28 21:45 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 15:55 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-29 01:35 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 01:47 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:24 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 01:18 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 20:07 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:23 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 11:01 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 19:19 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 14:32 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 11:44 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 21:23 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:15 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 09:26 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 13:22 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 14:10 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:16 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-11-30 17:36 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:18 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 10:08 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 00:45 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com> - 2012-12-01 08:00 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 13:22 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-01 17:33 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 17:43 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-02 14:13 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-04 20:34 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-04 18:25 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 07:55 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:11 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-05 07:52 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 11:02 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 21:28 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:21 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:05 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2012-12-05 23:22 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2012-12-06 00:00 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:17 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-06 07:15 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 21:52 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-12-06 20:59 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-06 12:38 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 20:39 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 22:31 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-12-05 16:32 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-05 17:04 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 22:01 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-12-06 14:05 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-06 10:28 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 16:58 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 07:34 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 10:55 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rich Webb <bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> - 2012-12-06 11:11 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rocky <RobertGush@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 21:38 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-07 03:49 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 02:58 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 17:28 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 11:55 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:17 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 12:36 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-11-29 16:22 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:36 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2012-12-11 10:53 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-11 14:53 +0000
                Unicode Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-12-14 23:25 +0700
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 14:30 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 12:24 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 18:02 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 15:45 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-16 22:55 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-16 23:20 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:27 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 11:17 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 14:07 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2012-12-16 03:28 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-16 10:40 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 02:31 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 03:36 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 03:55 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-11-28 23:24 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:37 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:31 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 13:44 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 13:22 +0100
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:32 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:28 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:20 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:07 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:17 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-11-29 18:25 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 22:46 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-11-30 11:47 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:38 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 15:21 -0500
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 22:26 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 17:32 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 19:02 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 18:29 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:39 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-29 00:59 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 07:57 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-29 13:02 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:19 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-29 12:03 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:39 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 08:04 -0500
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:17 +0000
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:19 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:44 -0500
          Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 13:15 -0500
            Re: Getting started with AVR and C Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2012-11-28 19:17 +0100
              Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:30 -0600
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:29 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 16:36 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:40 +0200
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 13:55 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 22:06 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 14:22 -0800
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 21:59 +0000
                Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-30 08:29 +0000
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-11-25 05:41 -0800
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rosario1903 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-27 10:21 +0100
  Re: Getting started with AVR and C dbr@kbrx.com - 2012-11-24 21:49 +0000
    Re: Getting started with AVR and C MK <mk@nospam.co.uk> - 2012-11-25 12:24 +0000
      Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-11-26 00:08 +0000

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