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Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C

From "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C
Date 2012-10-25 00:23 -0400
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <k6ael5$j60$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <e1c3e806-7d00-4d8c-92c2-b83d328057bc@googlegroups.com> <k68h73$mlv$1@speranza.aioe.org> <arKdnVMSfeE6rRXNnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@supernews.com>

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"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> wrote in message
news:arKdnVMSfeE6rRXNnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@supernews.com...
> On 10/24/12 12:55 AM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
...

> >> What about Forth ?
> >
> > Forth should be far worse for bugs.  Interpreted Forth has no error
> > checking whatsoever.  I.e., few or no bugs will be detected.  If it's
> > compiled Forth, the errors which are detected is entirely up to the
> > compiler author.  One Forth compiler might detect everything
> > whereas another won't check anything.  C compilers check for
> > incompatible types and a fairly standard set of various other
> > common C coding errors.
>
> *Sigh* We've been down this road so often!
>
> 1. No Forth is "interpreted" in the classical sense (e.g. Basic). ITC
> Forth is compiled into addresses that can be processes very efficiently
> in a competently written implementation.
>

My Forth interpreter is ITC ...

> 2. All Forths have some error checking, e.g. for undefined words, stack
> underflow at the user interface, etc. Some do more.

Yes, but that's very trivial.  How does that detect any serious programming
mistakes?  (rhetorical)

> 3. Forth is designed for intelligent programmers who prefer to assume
> responsibility for their work rather than relying on a "godlike"
> compiler to do their thinking for them.

That was the entire point of "visualforth's" statment.  Even programmers who
"assume responsibility for their work", like experienced and skilled C
programmers using coding standards to prevent mistakes, still make mistakes.
He's claiming the language, it's syntax, it's design, is what prevents or
reduces coding errors.  That's why he suggested Ada.

> 4. Forth's extreme modularity makes it so much easier for programmers to
> test their work that Forth applications are at least as reliable as
> applications written in other languages.

It's easy to test as-you-go in C also.  It's called printf().  Even so,
"visualforth" is claiming that errors are still made in C.  That's true.
With fewer checks than C, I don't see how Forth can be any _less_
error prone than C.

> 5. No, Forth doesn't do type checking. It could, and programs such as
> StrongForth have tried it. StrongForth never caught on. Programmers want
> to get their work done: if type checking actually helped, Forth
> programmers would implement and use it.

C programmers didn't like the void types and pointers added to ANSI C.  They
didn't believe they were needed.  Some still don't.  However, the type
checking for them has caught numerous coding errors.  "Forth" seems to be in
the same state of denial that C was.


Rod Pemberton

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I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-23 16:09 -0700
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-23 16:43 -0700
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-10-23 16:50 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-23 18:58 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 15:12 -0700
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-23 14:02 -1000
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-24 02:51 +0200
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 04:23 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-23 19:20 -0700
    Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-24 05:04 -0500
      Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 08:04 -1000
        Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 13:11 -0700
          Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 13:21 -0700
          Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-25 20:00 +0200
            Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 11:30 -0700
              Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-26 09:00 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-26 05:01 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 08:46 -0700
            Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-25 23:05 -0500
              Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-28 15:35 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-28 12:06 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-28 21:38 +0100
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-10-28 16:34 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-29 10:56 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-29 06:11 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-29 13:51 -0400
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-29 20:45 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-30 04:20 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-30 04:16 -0500
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 10:04 -0400
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 14:16 -0700
        Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 15:51 -1000
          Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 20:14 -0700
            Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-25 23:11 -0500
              Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 21:53 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-26 01:27 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-26 07:06 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-26 11:34 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-26 19:13 +0200
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-27 04:49 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 21:20 -1000
            Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 21:23 -1000
              Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-26 00:53 -0700
          Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2012-11-21 16:21 +0000
  Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-24 06:55 -0400
    Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 08:17 -1000
      Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-25 00:23 -0400
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 22:18 -0700
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 21:47 -1000
          Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 11:21 -0700
            Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 08:43 -1000
              Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 12:18 -0700
              Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-26 19:55 -0400
                Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-26 17:38 -1000
            Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 09:07 -0700
          Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-26 19:56 -0400
            Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-26 17:47 -1000
              Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-26 22:04 -0700
                Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-27 07:27 -0700
                Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-27 19:14 +0200
    Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 11:48 -0700
      Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 19:14 -0400
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-24 10:41 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 13:10 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 14:00 -1000
        Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 23:54 -0700
      Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-25 00:29 -0400
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 22:25 -0700
          Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 23:57 -0700
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 00:11 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-24 16:14 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 17:16 -0700
        Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-24 17:47 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 10:17 -0400

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