Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C
References	(4 earlier) <7oGdnZ_ZQto6cRTNnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xpq452aci.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <g42dneH18KIakBfNnZ2dnUVZ8lSdnZ2d@supernews.com> <7xvcdx7s1z.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <XJ-dnQSi4uX7sBfNnZ2dnUVZ8kKdnZ2d@supernews.com>
Date	2012-10-26 07:06 -0700
Message-ID	<7x625xe39v.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> Sure, but that's like saying you can program much faster if you use a
> program that's already been written instead of writing a new one!  I'm
> talking about the actual productivity of programmers writing programs.

Well, partway agreed.  Programming is putting existing building blocks
together, which in the early days meant individual machine instructions
plus maybe some subroutines that computed (say) square roots.  These
days we get bigger blocks, and if they are general purpose and re-usable
then building applications from them still counts as programming.  As a
maybe-better example, if we were writing a compiler today, we'd use a
parser generator instead of writing a hand-coded parser like a 1970's
implementer would have done.

> That is maybe plausible, just about, for some things.  The KWIC
> problem described is an interesting case because if you ignore
> efficiency issues you can solve it quickly.  Does this mean that
> today's programmers are more productive than yesterday's?  No!
> Yestderday's programmers would have been able to solve the KWIC
> problem quickly too if they could have got away with ignoring
> efficiency, although without a fast interactive development
> environment it would have taken them somewhat longer.

I think Parnas's 1972 description probably was based on assembly
language, and I could imagine implementing KWIC in assembler taking a
week.  If done in Snobol or Lisp, the part about generating the rotated
lines could probably be done almost as easily as in Python today, but in
all cases I'm not sure how the sorting phase would have been done.  In
the (plausible) case of a book-sized input, sorting in memory on a 1972
minicomputer wouldn't have been feasible, and an external sort utility
might not have been presumptively available (I don't know).  Today we'd
just sort in memory, or we could call the unix "sort" command for an
external sort.  In a really enormous case, we could use MrJob, which is
a Python wrapper for Hadoop, and (optimistically) still complete the
coding task in an hour, if the Hadoop cluster was already set up.  That
would have just been outlandish in the 1970's.

>> SPOJ problems ( http://www.spoj.pl/problems/classical/ )
> Well, maybe, but I think it's a bogus comparison.  AFAICS that's a
> bunch of toy problems in pure maths; of course you want a programming
> language and environment suited to that.  Real programming, and real
> programmer productivity, isn't dominated by that kind of thing, IME.

Maybe this is better then:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.117.1208&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Thread

I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-23 16:09 -0700
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-23 16:43 -0700
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-10-23 16:50 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-23 18:58 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 15:12 -0700
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-23 14:02 -1000
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-24 02:51 +0200
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 04:23 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-23 19:20 -0700
    Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-24 05:04 -0500
      Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 08:04 -1000
        Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 13:11 -0700
          Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 13:21 -0700
          Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-25 20:00 +0200
            Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 11:30 -0700
              Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-26 09:00 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-26 05:01 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 08:46 -0700
            Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-25 23:05 -0500
              Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-28 15:35 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-28 12:06 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-28 21:38 +0100
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-10-28 16:34 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-29 10:56 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-29 06:11 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-29 13:51 -0400
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-29 20:45 +0000
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-30 04:20 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-30 04:16 -0500
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 10:04 -0400
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 14:16 -0700
        Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 15:51 -1000
          Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 20:14 -0700
            Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-25 23:11 -0500
              Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 21:53 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-26 01:27 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-26 07:06 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-26 11:34 -0500
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-26 19:13 +0200
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-27 04:49 -0700
                Re: I Don?t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 21:20 -1000
            Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 21:23 -1000
              Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-26 00:53 -0700
          Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2012-11-21 16:21 +0000
  Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-24 06:55 -0400
    Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 08:17 -1000
      Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-25 00:23 -0400
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 22:18 -0700
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 21:47 -1000
          Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 11:21 -0700
            Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-25 08:43 -1000
              Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-25 12:18 -0700
              Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-26 19:55 -0400
                Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-26 17:38 -1000
            Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 09:07 -0700
          Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-26 19:56 -0400
            Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-26 17:47 -1000
              Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-26 22:04 -0700
                Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-27 07:27 -0700
                Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-27 19:14 +0200
    Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 11:48 -0700
      Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 19:14 -0400
  Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-24 10:41 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 13:10 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-24 14:00 -1000
        Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 23:54 -0700
      Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-25 00:29 -0400
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 22:25 -0700
          Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 23:57 -0700
        Re: I Don't Make Mistakes. I Use C Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 00:11 -0700
    Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-24 16:14 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-24 17:16 -0700
        Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-24 17:47 -0700
      Re: I Don’t Make Mistakes. I Use C rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-25 10:17 -0400

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