Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me

From	"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me
Date	2012-10-21 09:40 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<k60tp6$64v$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <2017da18-ac49-4b0e-bec1-5ceffff9435e@pz10g2000pbb.googlegroups.com> <k5sogo$78k$1@speranza.aioe.org> <7fa71346-ad58-4baf-bf96-a1e428b5bd58@p5g2000pbs.googlegroups.com> <k5vhel$b0k$1@speranza.aioe.org> <717bab9e-8733-4399-a881-bd6766ba6ef2@i2g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>

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"Hugh Aguilar" <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:717bab9e-8733-4399-a881-bd6766ba6ef2@i2g2000pbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 20, 6:00 pm, "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_h...@notemailnotz.cnm>
> wrote:
...

> [Novices] should have basic stuff such as records,
> arrays and linked-lists available already.

C has structs and arrays.  That's what's needed.

> This is necessary for even the simplest program.

As C proves - it's missing them too - there is minimal need for
linked-lists.  Are they needed from time to time?  Yes.  So are complex
numbers, but C didn't support those for a long time either.

> I remember in MS-DOS days that we had QBasic that lacked records.
> The typical solution was to define multiple arrays, each of which
> contained one field of the record. After you calculate your index it
> would be used in the appropriate array to get whatever field you need.

Isn't that the way Forth _still_ does it?

See CFA, LFA, PFA, or >BODY, >NAME, >LINK, etc.  They all define
offsets from the start of a "struct".  I think I may have mentioned this in
a prior conversation.  The only C compiler I'm aware of that requires the
user to use offsets to implement struct's is an old and very primitive
compiler known as SmallC.

> I agree that Forth has weaknesses. I don't think that C is any better
> though; C is worse.

Yet, nearly every language in existence uses or has used C as it's backend.
Doesn't that prove C's effectiveness?

> In Forth something like EACH is difficult to implement because
> ANS-Forth lacks closures. Both Forth and C are seriously hamstrung
> by their lack of support for closures.

"Closures" seems to be the one "magic" feature that everyone seems to think
is missing from their favorite language.  What's so special about closures?

What does C need closures for?  What does Forth ... ?

I may have asked you that previously.  I know I've asked others on
comp.lang.misc and elsewhere.  I doubt I've gotten a satisfactory answer so
far.  I may need to see sample code to grasp the issue ...

C has been used to implement nearly all, if not all, of the languages on
Wikipedia's "closure" page that have closures or closure like structures.  I
know I've been over _this_ previously on c.l.f. ...

> [...] and C be phased out.

Lol!  (I just don't foresee that happening any time soon.)

C still very effectively captures the "essence" of a modern microprocessor.

Rod Pemberton

Thread

FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-17 16:56 -0500
  Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2012-10-17 19:11 -0300
    Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:15 -0700
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-18 05:25 -0500
  Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-18 00:14 +0200
    Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-17 18:45 -0400
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-18 08:49 +0000
        Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-18 15:58 -0400
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-18 21:53 +0000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-19 18:39 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-19 23:22 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-21 13:40 -0500
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-19 21:00 -1000
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-20 09:18 +0200
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-20 08:40 -1000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-21 12:22 +0200
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-21 08:46 -0400
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-18 21:08 +0200
        Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 12:29 -0700
  Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-17 20:24 -0700
    Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-19 19:46 -0400
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-19 18:46 -0700
        Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-20 21:03 -0400
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-20 15:40 -1000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-20 18:52 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-20 16:27 -1000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-20 20:56 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-21 09:40 -0400
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-21 12:51 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-21 23:50 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-21 17:11 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl - 2012-10-22 00:19 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 00:41 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-22 09:31 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 08:13 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-22 21:40 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 13:14 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-22 10:41 -1000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-22 23:21 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 14:27 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-22 14:16 -1000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-23 21:42 +0100
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-22 00:24 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 04:12 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 01:40 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 02:39 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 02:30 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 22:27 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2012-11-04 22:18 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-05 15:35 +0100
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 12:22 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 12:51 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 23:40 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-23 12:50 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 09:13 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-25 12:31 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 09:58 -0700
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-21 16:24 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-22 02:51 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-21 19:55 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-22 03:02 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 03:50 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 01:03 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-22 10:12 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-22 10:08 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-22 18:06 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-22 22:14 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-23 00:50 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-23 03:43 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-23 03:14 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 19:54 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-22 22:59 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-24 09:23 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-23 10:33 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-24 10:05 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 14:56 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-23 11:50 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-23 14:39 +0000
                Application Benchmarks (was: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-23 15:59 +0000
                Re: Application Benchmarks (was: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-24 14:33 +0000
                Re: Application Benchmarks (was: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-25 14:19 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 03:56 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-21 22:12 -1000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 02:51 -0700
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-21 05:29 -0500
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-21 09:35 -0400
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-21 15:44 +0200
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-21 18:43 -0500
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 04:20 -0400

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