Re: John McCarthy died today.

From	Edward Rutherford <edward.p.rutherford79@REMOVETHIS.gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: John McCarthy died today.
Date	2011-11-09 17:15 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<j9eceq$jb3$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <ln1utjegei.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <8a3ee570-307b-46b4-8e39-996082e716fc@s5g2000vbe.googlegroups.com> <ln7h3acl4i.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <j9ca4i$gt7$1@speranza.aioe.org> <lnr51ib0bn.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>

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Keith Thompson wrote:
> Edward Rutherford <edward.p.rutherford79@REMOVETHIS.gmail.com> writes:
>> Keith Thompson wrote:
> [...]
>>> Using "=" for assignment was not, in my opinion, a good idea.  Any
>>> attempt to change it now would be far worse.
>>
>> With this attitude, the language will never improve!
> 
> With any other attitude, the language will die.
> 
> If you think that changing the C language to use ":=" rather than for
> assignment is a good idea, that's not an unreasonable opinion, at least
> at first glance.  Frankly, I *wish* I could agree.  But if you want to
> propose such a change and have it taken seriously, you need to address
> the problems it could cause (as I did in my previous message).
> 
> So tell us, how would you address the problem of existing code that uses
> "=" for assignment, and of new code using ":=" for assignment that would
> no longer compile with older compilers?  Similarly, how would you
> address the legions of C programmers who believe (rightly or wrongly)
> that using "=" for assignment and "==" for equality is ok, and doesn't
> need to be fixed?
> 
> Please be specific.

Python has dealt with this problem very successfully, Kieth: see http://
www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0005/ for some general approaches, but also 
http://docs.python.org/release/3.0/whatsnew/3.0.html for details about 
transitioning to "the first ever intentionally backwards incompatible 
Python release".

One of the key planks supporting upgrades to Python 3.0 is an automated 
conversion tool, 2to3 (http://docs.python.org/release/3.0/
library/2to3.html#to3-reference), which automatically upgrades 2.x source 
code to valid 3.0 Python syntax.

It would be a simple matter to write a converter that read a C source 
file and replaced all = assignment operators with :=

Incidentally, Python has many convenient features that could easily be 
added to C, e.g. multiple comparisons behave correctly (a < b > c etc); 
array and string slicing e.g. s[4:7] as a shortcut for strndup(s+4,3); 
else clauses on loops; and many more. Unfortunately the current fashion 
seems to be to try to preserve C in aspic.

Thread

John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-10-25 00:44 +0000
  Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-25 01:27 -0700
  Re: John McCarthy died today. Kleuskes & Moos <kleuske@somewhere.else.net> - 2011-10-25 09:27 +0000
  Re: John McCarthy died today. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-10-25 11:27 +0100
  Re: John McCarthy died today. Ark <akhasin@macroexpressions.com> - 2011-10-29 13:33 -0400
    Re: John McCarthy died today. Willem <willem@toad.stack.nl> - 2011-10-29 17:51 +0000
      Re: John McCarthy died today. Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-29 21:28 +0300
      Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-29 11:57 -0700
        Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-10-30 08:20 -0700
      Re: John McCarthy died today. Ark <akhasin@macroexpressions.com> - 2011-11-04 05:20 -0400
        Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-04 15:53 +0000
          Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-04 12:16 -0400
            Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-04 17:58 +0000
              Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-04 20:49 -0400
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-05 01:55 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-07 10:54 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "Charles Richmond" <netnews@aquaporin4.com> - 2011-11-07 07:36 -0600
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-07 19:49 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-07 15:49 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-08 00:38 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-08 07:05 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-11-08 09:12 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-08 16:48 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-08 12:12 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-08 23:27 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-08 14:10 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-08 17:16 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-11-09 13:51 -0500
                Re: Looping Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-11-09 19:21 -0700
                Re: Looping Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-10 02:34 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-11-08 17:49 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-08 16:35 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-11-09 01:08 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-09 01:26 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-11-09 08:18 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-09 05:32 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-09 01:24 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Quentin Carbonneaux <qcarbonn@invalid.com> - 2011-11-09 11:59 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-09 05:34 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-08 18:31 +0200
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-07 14:06 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-08 02:01 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-07 23:16 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-08 05:18 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-07 23:17 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-08 01:46 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-08 13:02 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-08 14:19 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Edward Rutherford <edward.p.rutherford79@REMOVETHIS.gmail.com> - 2011-11-08 22:23 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-08 18:13 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-08 23:38 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-08 23:18 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-10 12:40 +0200
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-11-10 11:39 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-10 12:23 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-11-10 05:38 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-11-10 17:29 +0200
                Re: John McCarthy died today. David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2011-11-21 02:39 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-08 16:34 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-09 01:37 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-09 13:25 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-10 10:36 +1300
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-11-09 23:47 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-10 00:21 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-10 03:04 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-11-10 15:20 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-11-12 23:22 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-13 01:44 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "Charles Richmond" <netnews@aquaporin4.com> - 2011-11-13 04:18 -0600
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-13 16:57 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-13 11:59 -0600
                Re: John McCarthy died today. gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-11-13 18:54 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-13 14:47 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-14 03:43 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2011-11-14 09:00 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-14 18:30 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-14 14:44 -0500
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-11-14 20:13 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-11-14 00:21 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2011-11-10 15:26 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2011-11-10 01:51 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Edward Rutherford <edward.p.rutherford79@REMOVETHIS.gmail.com> - 2011-11-09 17:15 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-09 18:04 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-09 13:31 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-11-09 15:53 -0600
                Re: John McCarthy died today. "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-11-09 22:02 +0000
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-09 14:14 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-09 13:50 -0800
                Re: John McCarthy died today. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-11-08 07:10 -0500
          Re: John McCarthy died today. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-11-04 14:51 -0700

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