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Groups > comp.lang.c > #126651

Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language

From Egor <egor@ruby.local>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language
Date 2018-02-13 13:14 +0200
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <httale-995.ln1@ruby.opensrc.club> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <AEVfC.654128$3J3.488981@fx37.am4> <20180212000054.32bbfbfafa91930c5a09c41c@gmail.com> <uF5gC.811010$rE1.542238@fx14.am4> <20180212122916.ed1d64b3b64af5cd70bccb61@gmail.com> <ECfgC.773861$ba4.49431@fx24.am4>

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bartc <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 12/02/2018 11:29, GOTHIER Nathan wrote:
> You keep saying this. But you don't just call a label:
> 
>    call printf
> 
> There are arguments to be passed, and values to be returned. That 
> information is documented in C terms. The mechanics might be stipulated 
> by the platform, but before that, you need to understand what the 
> parameters are. And that's where C gets in the way.

I can only think of two ways in which C influences ABI design decisions:
1) null-terminated strings
2) caller-cleans for variadic functions. Having variadic callee-cleans
functions is possible, but it's PITA to juggle the stack around before
returning (Also it's easier to mess up the stack, if e.g. too many
arguments are passed)

Many ABI things are done a certain way because of the hardware, not
because "it's defined like that in C". Take for example padding in
structures: it's not there because of C, it's there because it's more
efficient to access aligned words on most architectures, and some even
throw exceptions at you if you access a word at an odd address (e.g.
m68k). Another example: char being up-converted to int when passed to
functions: you can only push words (and not bytes) on many arches
including x86 and PDP-11 (which is what C was originally developed for)

Clearly you don't need C to define the parameters of a function. The
reason why C is usually chosen for documentation of function interface,
is because C is the only low level language that's universally known,
and is very portable.

The major advantage of C over something like C2 is that it uses the
"local convention" for types and ABI. By locking-in your FFI to certain
types, you disregard every program which uses system ABI. Even if i32 is
the usual way to pass integers to a function on *your* system, that
doesn't mean that another system won't use i16 or i64 for that purpose.
C doesn't do this, and so it doesn't have interoperability issues with
other languages.

In short, if it wasn't documented in C, it'd need to be documented
separately for each platform.

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Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 12:41 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 13:38 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 00:32 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:23 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:53 +0300
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-11 13:26 +0000
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:04 -0800
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 01:34 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:42 -0800
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-10 17:50 -0800
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:54 -0800
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 12:14 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 04:48 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-10 22:35 -0700
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 13:25 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 11:18 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-11 21:57 +0000
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-12 14:10 +1300
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 11:11 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-02-12 20:33 +0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 06:05 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:13 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 01:17 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 09:55 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 12:28 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:36 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 00:59 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 15:19 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 14:07 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-06 15:46 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 20:31 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 15:42 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 01:13 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 15:13 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-21 08:43 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 19:21 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 12:25 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-21 19:28 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 18:29 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-22 08:33 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 14:48 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-14 11:54 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 20:41 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 00:00 +0100
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 00:59 +0000
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 12:29 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 12:18 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 15:27 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 15:19 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 16:49 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 17:16 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:30 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-12 22:37 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 22:15 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 17:05 +1300
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 11:11 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 10:32 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 11:10 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language gordonb.5itdn@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 12:57 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-14 20:29 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language gordonb.nrdl0@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 19:22 -0600
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 14:59 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 04:00 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:46 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 08:49 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 09:52 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 13:47 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 05:11 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:49 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 21:52 +0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 14:45 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 07:45 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 05:35 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:21 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:24 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-13 13:14 +0200
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-13 04:38 -0800
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-14 13:25 +0200
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-13 13:39 +0000
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Egor <egor@ruby.local> - 2018-02-14 13:42 +0200
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-15 13:17 -0800
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-11 04:41 +0100
  Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 17:25 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-12 17:28 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 21:01 +0100
    Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 17:51 +0000
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 19:28 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 20:02 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 23:32 +0100
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 10:42 +0100
              Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-13 13:26 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-02-13 08:06 -0500
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-13 15:16 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-13 14:53 +0100
                Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-13 15:22 -0600
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-12 12:26 -0800
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 23:45 +0100
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 15:52 -0800
            Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2018-02-12 17:13 -0800
      Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 21:15 +0100
        Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-12 21:42 +0000
          Re: C2 Aims to Modernize the C Language Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-02-12 23:21 +0100

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