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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #450985

Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops

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On 5/9/18 2:52 PM, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 3:13:39 PM UTC-6, Snit wrote:
>> On 5/9/18 2:05 PM, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 9:11:25 AM UTC-6, Snit wrote:
>>>> On 5/9/18 4:48 AM, chrisv wrote:
>>>>> vallor wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This isn't an exaggeration, they are all applications I run on my gaming
>>>>>> desktop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://imgur.com/QuhB6zn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's Windows 10, and we're used to these so-called "inconsistent"
>>>>>> interfaces.  As I said before:  big woop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those confused by such things, stay away from Windows and Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep.  That's what the Mac is for.
>>>>>
>>>> The point I was making was that as much as those in COLA fail to
>>>> understand the value, when you look at a REAL Linux advocacy community
>>>> they DO understand the value. And looking at the thread I pointed to is
>>>> a great example. Here, from that thread:
>>>>
>>>> <https://goo.gl/ZSWbc9> Ezee Linux on Facebook
>>>>        -----
>>>>        I just spent a rather frustrating morning trying to
>>>>        figure out how to get QT applications and GTK
>>>>        applications to look like they belong together on
>>>>        Ubuntu 18.04 with the GNOME and Unity desktops...
>>>>        I’d like to find a new-user friendly way of doing it
>>>>        but it eludes me. I’ve followed a bunch of
>>>>        suggestions in forums but none has worked
>>>>        satisfactorily. I know it is possible because Linux
>>>>        Mint, Ubuntu MATE and any distribution running the
>>>>        KDE Plasma desktop come with everything setup to
>>>>        look right. KDE offers separate controls for QT and
>>>>        QTK so you can really dial it in while GNOME offers
>>>>        nothing and Ubuntu didn’t bother to try to address
>>>>        the issue downstream. Some folks don’t care, of
>>>>        course, but it’s a real bummer to me. Your thoughts?
>>>>        -----
>>>>
>>>> And replies to that comment:
>>>>        -----
>>>>        I tried some years ago... and never tried after
>>>>        that. I just accepted it. (I used to run Arch with
>>>>        Xfce4, now I mainly run straight up Debian with
>>>>        Xfce4.)
>>>>
>>>>        Trying to make things look good would be a dream -
>>>>        but therein lies madness.
>>>>        -----
>>>>            Spoonamore Same here. I'm on Manjaro with Mate. It
>>>>            will all normalize when either QT or GTK dies..
>>>>        -----
>>>>            Hemmingsen Well, I even tried to make the design
>>>>            look good when you do tiled applications at some
>>>>            point. I was really annoyed by the rounded edges
>>>>            in each upper corner. Even when you tiled them.
>>>>            But on the other hand, it works - and it works
>>>>            very well. Hell I ran it on hardware at the time
>>>>            you couldn't even get anymore. At least 10+
>>>>            years old. I just recently upgraded to some
>>>>            better hardware. But it was already fast and
>>>>            could be used well. Even back then.
>>>>        -----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And looking now, I see this is the "top comment" (other than another
>>>> from Ezee Linux himself):
>>>>        -----
>>>>        It is not just an issue of looks but of usability.
>>>>        The face this is still as much of an issue on
>>>>        desktop Linux as it is harms adoption and reduced
>>>>        productivity even for most who say they do not care.
>>>>
>>>>        I am very happy to see you speak of this. Your voice
>>>>        is becoming — or already is — a high profile one..
>>>>        Hopefully this helps the situation improve.
>>>>        -----
>>>>
>>>> To be fair there ARE some who say it does not bother them much... but
>>>> the norm, clearly, is to recognize that this IS a issue.
>>>
>>> You call that thread (with very few people in it) in where many (most?)
>>> are saying they don't care,  "the norm"? And the only guy that agreed
>>> with you has no FB history:"Jon Christopher Spoonamore"
>>
>> Many in that discussion show understanding, and I could not care less
>> about the history of the people responding.
> 
> LOL! You seem to have forgotten you just called them "the norm".

Ah, you are splitting hairs, but sure... a "fair" nit, as far as silly 
little nits go. People understanding and caring about this issue, which 
impacts productivity, efficiency, and error-reduction, is clearly 
common. And for those who are not as concerned it seems uncommon, 
outside of COLA, to attack or insult those that do have a decent 
understanding of the issue.

>>> C'mon, Snit... you know no one will bite on this BS. And how is the
>>> image Scott showed all that different than what can and *does*
>>> happen on my Macs?
>>
>> There are not two competing UI paradigms on a Mac,
> 
> BS.

Oh, Carroll, back to your games of snipping sentences in half to ignore 
the context. Here, the FULL sentence:

      There are not two competing UI paradigms on a Mac, with
      each one being lead by people who note that having two
      paradigms is detrimental the user.

Now you can claim this was some bizarre error, but unless you do your 
actions right there were a fine example of your dishonesty. No need to 
dig back even days to find examples, no less years.

> The only thing that has a shot at being guaranteed any level
> of consistency is the look of the 3 circular window widgets and
> the placement of the window title. I've been a Mac user for
> decades, Snit, you're not gonna be able to fool me with this BS.

While the macOS environment is FAR from perfect in this area, there are 
times you want inconsistency. The real issue is the proper use of 
consistency (and inconsistency if you will). It is doing so with purpose 
and based on what the research shows works. Still, you are right to note 
macOS is far from perfect here... for example file dialogs (open and 
save) are FAIRLY consistent but far from perfect even with Apple 
programs (heck, look at the ones from iMovie to see a fine bit of 
insanity). The iMovie UI disaster is one reason I prefer other video 
editing tools.

Still, even with iMovie (what I consider to be a pretty big "error" in 
terms of UI), the level of consistency with the rest of the system is 
pretty amazing. Just some things:

* Menu names and placements. The menu, of course, is where macOS menus 
almost always are, and the terms are the same: without even looking, if 
you are familiar with macOS, you know where the "Preferences" are and 
that they are called that and not "options" or the like, you know where 
"Quit" is and what it will be called (and that you can opt to quit 
keeping windows or not), you know the Share menu item will give you 
options where it makes sense to share your video, you know where to find 
the version information.

* With all or at least most of that, you know the hot keys. For example,
you know what hot key will take you to preferences or to do even rather 
"obscure" things like get to Emoji and symbols if you are adding text.

* You know what the Share icon will look like and (at least roughly) 
what it will do.

* You know that the file dialogs, as "odd" as some are (Import Media), 
will have the "action" button on the far right and the "no action" 
option to the left of that.

* You know that when you go to import an image you will be able to look 
for it by Album or People or Places or the like.

Now iMovie does have an inconsistent color -- a darker theme. This makes 
sense though given the context (though carrying this over the the file 
dialogs seems odd). The fact Photos does NOT have this except for in its 
Edit mode is rather absurd, really. That is a case where an inconsistent 
UI (or at least the option for one) would be a benefit and Apple fails 
to provide it (or if they do I am not aware of it).

Sigh... and that is a LOT to go over to have you, likely, give some 
variation of "nuh uh" in response. :)


-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>

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(lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-05-09 04:26 +0000
  Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-08 22:11 -0700
  Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-08 22:15 -0700
    Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-08 23:13 -0700
  Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-05-09 06:48 -0500
    Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 08:11 -0700
      Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-05-09 20:07 +0000
        Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 13:34 -0700
        Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 13:59 -0700
          Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 14:06 -0700
          Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 14:09 -0700
            Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 14:10 -0700
            Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 14:15 -0700
            Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-05-10 07:41 +0000
              Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 07:49 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-10 08:12 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 09:23 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-10 09:30 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 09:34 -0700
              Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-05-10 10:24 -0500
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 09:24 -0700
              Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2018-05-10 20:17 +0000
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 13:24 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Doomsdrzej <.m@nsn.s> - 2018-05-10 17:34 -0400
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 14:36 -0700
      Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 14:05 -0700
        Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 14:13 -0700
          Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 14:52 -0700
            Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 16:58 -0700
              Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 17:33 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 19:45 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 21:05 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-09 23:10 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-09 19:57 -0700
            Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-11 09:14 -0700
              Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-11 09:44 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-11 09:48 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-11 09:59 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-11 10:17 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-11 10:27 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-11 11:26 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2018-05-12 09:11 -0700
                Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-12 11:24 -0700
  Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2018-05-10 20:14 +0000
    Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 13:23 -0700
    Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-05-10 22:55 +0000
      Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-10 16:05 -0700
      Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2018-05-11 02:58 +0000
        Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Doomsdrzej <.m@nsn.s> - 2018-05-11 07:23 -0400
          Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-11 05:45 -0700
        Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-05-11 11:22 -0500
      Re: (lack of) Consistency in commercial desktops William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2018-05-11 13:36 +0100

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