Groups > sci.electronics.design > #447765

Re: analog failures

From	Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: analog failures
Date	2017-02-15 10:19 -0800
Message-ID	<egjkdaF96lpU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <o80flk$of4$1@dont-email.me> <3b85856b-fb02-4edb-9223-878c9efbf7ac@googlegroups.com> <o80jd1$set$1@dont-email.me> <egjbr9F7dhiU1@mid.individual.net> <s609acdk8jegfeslhbhnl9dmpf11u6se21@4ax.com>

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On 2017-02-15 08:30, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 07:53:18 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-02-14 19:55, Reinhardt Behm wrote:
>>> AT Wednesday 15 February 2017 11:00, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 1:52:23 PM UTC+11, Reinhardt Behm
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> AT Wednesday 15 February 2017 07:05, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Den tirsdag den 14. februar 2017 kl. 23.47.11 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
>>>>>>> http://semiengineering.com/devices-threatened-by-analog-content/
>>>>>>>
>>
>> IME most analog failures are caused by ESD and that is often squarely in
>> the court of the board level designer.
>>
>> Upsets without subsequent chip damage are also considered a fault where
>> the function is mission-critical. That is very often due to EMI.
>>
>>
>>>>>>> My experience is that we find a lot of bugs and documentation problems
>>>>>>> with the digital parts of mixed-signal chips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does seem like when analog designers get to design the digital parts
>>>>>> of a chip it often ends up with a hairball of hazards and weird quirks
>>>>>
>>>>> That was always my experience with part from NatSemi. Pure analog was
>>>>> good, pure digital was good, mixed mostly was a mess.
>>>>
>>>> Mixed signal design is difficult, and doing it on a chip, where it is
>>>> harder to keep the noisy digital bits away from the sensitive analog bits,
>>>> wouldn't have made it any easier.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, mixed signal design can do a lot more than pure analog or pure
>>>> digital, so if you have got something complicated to do, that tends to be
>>>> what you end up doing.
>>>
>>> It was never the problem of digital noise coupling into the analog portions
>>> but the digital totally mixed up, like the LM75 going into a state where
>>> only a power cycle helps to get it working again. This can be caused by
>>> noise on the I2C signals.
>>
>>
>> I2C is a bus I try not to use if it can be avoided because of various
>> hang-ups. SPI is much more robust IME and, therefore, that is what I prefer.
>
> I prefer SPI too, and it's faster, but lots of people design terrible
> SPI interfaces, bad logic design and bad clock/data circuits. Every
> SPI should have schmitt inputs and safe timing margins. Maybe cooking
> a digital design into an analog process causes compromises, but I
> suspect it's just sloppy engineering.
>
>>
>>
>>> I had the same with a part from Microchip. It has a config bit to
>>> automatically reset its I2C interface after a timeout period without any
>>> activity on the bus. This bit is reset after power on. So if the interface
>>> goes gaga because of a poor POR you never get it working.
>>>
>>
>> Oh-oh. Sounds like they built in a loose cannon for a sledgehammer.
>> However, a poor POR is something the circuit designer should take care
>> of. Never trust any on-chip POR/BOR. Ever.
>
> The little NXP ARM chips, LPC1768 and such, seem to do POR right.
>

Even they seem to have their oops moments.

http://www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10430.pdf

Quote page 9: "POR reset value of the event router STATUS register 
corrected"

http://www.nxp.com/documents/errata_sheet/ES_LPC176X.pdf

Quote page 18:

"Problem:

The USB host controller will hang indefinitely if it sees a dribble bit 
on the USB bus. It will hang the first time a dribble bit is seen. Once 
it is in this state there is no recovery other than a hard chip reset. 
This problem has no effect on the USB device controller.

Work-around:

None."

End quote


> All the FPGAs that we have used lately, ditto.
>
> You can connect one of those ARMs, or an FPGA, to a serial flash chip
> and have the whole thing boot up reliably.
>

If you use certain FPGA you'd first have to call the people at your 
energy provider that you are about to turn it on :-)

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Thread

analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-14 14:47 -0800
  Re: analog failures Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-14 15:05 -0800
    Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-15 10:52 +0800
      Re: analog failures bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-14 19:00 -0800
        Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-15 11:55 +0800
          Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-15 07:53 -0800
            Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 08:30 -0800
              Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-15 10:19 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 10:53 -0800
                Re: analog failures Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-15 10:58 -0800
                Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-15 21:25 -0600
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 20:18 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 15:44 -0500
              Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 15:30 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 14:05 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 17:16 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 14:38 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 17:58 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 15:37 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 18:51 -0500
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-17 20:27 -0500
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-17 17:56 -0800
                Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-17 21:03 -0600
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-17 22:36 -0500
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 00:45 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-19 08:32 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-21 12:31 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-23 14:57 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-23 12:02 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-17 17:27 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 20:39 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 07:41 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-18 08:04 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 08:16 -0800
            Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-16 06:49 +0800
              Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-16 07:14 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-16 07:24 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-16 07:41 -0800
                Re: analog failures Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-17 13:22 +0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 06:58 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-17 12:26 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 14:03 -0800
                Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-17 21:05 -0600
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-18 08:07 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 08:20 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-18 09:20 -0800
                Re: analog failures rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 00:48 -0500
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-21 12:39 -0800
                Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-21 22:54 -0600
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-17 20:33 -0500
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-18 07:37 -0800
                Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-22 15:45 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-23 10:43 -0800
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-23 20:42 -0500
                Re: analog failures "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-02-24 03:31 -0600
                Re: analog failures grahamholloway@graham65.plus.com - 2017-02-24 06:39 -0800
                Re: analog failures Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2017-02-24 14:58 +0000
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-25 12:48 -0800
                Re: analog failures pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 04:39 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-26 07:52 -0800
                Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-24 09:02 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-25 12:44 -0800
                Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-26 08:29 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-26 09:46 -0800
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-26 10:11 -0800
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-26 17:55 -0500
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-26 15:09 -0800
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-26 19:30 -0500
                Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-27 10:37 -0800
                Re: analog failures Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-24 09:14 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-25 12:46 -0800
                Re: analog failures Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-26 17:44 -0800
                Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-27 07:51 -0800
                Re: analog failures Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2017-02-23 21:36 +0200
                Re: analog failures dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-02-24 08:38 -0800
                Re: analog failures krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-24 20:20 -0500
                Re: analog failures kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-02-24 17:36 -0800
      Re: analog failures Ralph Barone <ralph@invalid.com> - 2017-02-15 03:25 +0000
    Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-14 19:20 -0800
  Re: analog failures Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-02-14 17:46 -0600
    Re: analog failures Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-14 17:50 -0700
      Re: analog failures Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2017-02-14 23:49 -0600
        Re: analog failures Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-15 07:03 -0700
        Re: analog failures John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-15 10:18 -0800
          Re: analog failures Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-02-15 15:06 -0600
  Re: analog failures legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2017-02-16 23:06 -0500
    Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 07:00 -0800
      Re: analog failures legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> - 2017-02-17 13:22 -0500
        Re: analog failures Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-17 11:06 -0800

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