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Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry???

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On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 10:44:10 PM UTC+2, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.t...@gmail.com> writes: 
> >On 11/9/2022 12:29 AM, David Brown wrote: 
> >> On 09/11/2022 00:39, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: 
> >>> On 11/8/2022 3:29 AM, Juha Nieminen wrote: 
> >>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>>>> You keep on adding features to the language which have unintuitive 
> >>>>> syntax and odd rules, and 
> >>>>> don't do much to increase the number of programs you can write 
> >>>>> quickly. So what happens? 
> >>>>> Theres not much motivation to learn these features until forced to 
> >>>>> do so. So codebases tend 
> >>>>> to be mainly legacy, and C++ programmers' skills fall behind. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> For the longest time I quite strongly disagreed with the claim that 
> >>>> C++ is 
> >>>> becoming too big and too complicated. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> However, C++20 has eroded this conviction of mine somewhat. C++23 is 
> >>>> eroding 
> >>>> it even more. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> C++11 felt like a big bunch of features that the language was in dire 
> >>>> need 
> >>>> of, and genuinely made programming easier. C++14 and C++17 fixed and 
> >>>> patched 
> >>>> many of the minor problems and defects that turned out to exist in 
> >>>> C++11, 
> >>>> so C++17 felt like "what C++11 should have been in the first place". 
> >> 
> >> I agree with that. 
> >> 
> >> A challenge for C++ is that even when a new and better feature is added, 
> >> the older and clumsier methods still have to be supported.  This also 
> >> means that syntax can be awkward because it can't conflict with existing 
> >> syntax, and the details get more complex all the time. 
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> I was really excited and happy when C++ finally made atomics and 
> >>> membars part of the actual standard, C++11 iirc. Before that, I would 
> >>> have to code these things up in assembly language. 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> Standard atomics would be great if they worked for my targets.  The gcc 
> >> implementations (and I haven't seen any others) for "advanced" use 
> >> (read-modify-write, or sizes larger than a standard register) is 
> >> completely broken for single-core systems, and even on multi-core 
> >> systems it is limited if you use thread priorities.  The trouble with 
> >> them is that no one has addressed the elephant in the room - in general, 
> >> you need OS support and locks to implement large atomics. 
> > 
> >Are you referring to double-width compare-and-swap (DWCAS)? C++ should 
> >be able to handle it directly using the processors instruction set. Say 
> >C++ on a modern 64 bit x64 system, well CMPXCHG16B should be used for a 
> >double word. Double word in the sense that they are two _contiguous_ 
> >words. In other words, a lock-free CAS of a double word on a 64 bit x64 
> >should use CMPXCHG16B.
> David works with low-end embedded processors, as I understand it, with 
> limited and/or restricted instruction sets.

In my book Cortex-M (except M0) is not a low end.
M7 in particular is too big and too complicated not even for 
proverbial 99%, but for solid 100% of my microcontroller needs.

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“The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 14:30 -0500
  Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 13:03 -0700
    Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 13:04 -0700
      Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 16:07 -0500
    Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 16:05 -0500
      Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-03 14:25 -0700
        Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-11-05 14:12 -0500
          Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-05 14:20 -0700
      Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-11-04 09:24 +0100
  Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-11-05 21:42 +0000
  Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-06 11:55 -0800
  Re: “The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry” Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-11-08 02:44 -0800
    Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-11-08 11:29 +0000
      Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-08 03:54 -0800
        Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Stuart Redmann <DerTopper@web.de> - 2022-11-08 14:26 +0100
          Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-09 00:22 -0800
        Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-11-08 15:16 +0000
      Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-11-08 14:52 +0100
      Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2022-11-08 22:48 +0000
      Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-08 15:39 -0800
        Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-09 09:29 +0100
          Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-11-09 14:39 +0000
            Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-09 17:05 +0100
              Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-11-09 17:58 +0000
          Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-09 11:47 -0800
            Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-11-09 20:43 +0000
              Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-10 09:52 +0100
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-10 03:07 -0800
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-10 11:53 -0800
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-10 21:44 +0100
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-10 12:53 -0800
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-11-10 21:20 +0000
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-11-10 13:23 -0800
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-11-11 08:10 +0100
                Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-11-11 01:45 -0800
              Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry??? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-11-10 03:14 -0800
      Re: ???The pool of talented C++ developers is running         dry??? Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2022-11-09 07:59 -0500

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