Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter

From	Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr>
Newsgroups	alt.usage.english
Subject	Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter
Date	2015-12-28 22:26 +0100
Message-ID	<dednnnFha9mU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <deajs0FnmfrU1@mid.individual.net> <mn.dd897dfc4f7439a5.127094@snitoo> <fp728bda4ari1rrjeauf65njfipajj7rpo@4ax.com> <ded7cmFd1ocU1@mid.individual.net> <69e96f22-99d2-4afc-ba14-a35d7298ea4f@googlegroups.com>

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On 2015-12-28 20:31:02 +0000, snidely.too@gmail.com said:

> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 8:47:23 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2015-12-28 11:45:27 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] said:
>>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:37:14 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, Athel Cornish-Bowden pointed out that ...
>>>>> On 2015-12-27 16:27:40 +0000, Lewis said:
> 
>>>>>> No. For many people first cousins are considered too close,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not if you've been brought up in the bosom of the Church of England they
>>>>> aren't. Charles Darwin's wife Emma was his first cousin.
>>>> 
>>>> Which appears to have contributed to their offspring's ill health.  "Of
>>>> the ten Darwin children, most were sickly.  Three proved infertile as
>>>> adults, and three died young, roughly double the child mortality rate
>>>> in England."  Kean, _The Violinist's Thumb_, pg 251
>>>> 
>>>> "While most children born to first cousins are healthy (well north of
>>>> 90 percent), they do have higher risks for birth defects and medical
>>>> problems, and the numbers can creep higher still in unlucky families."
>>>> (ibid)
>>>> 
>>> It's a miracle that humans exist considering that our shared ancestor,
>>> Adam, produced children with Eve who wasn't a cousin or sister but was
>>> made from his own body. He reproduced using a separated part of himself,
>>> allegedly.
>>> 
>>> That's extreme consanguinity.
>> 
>> Yes, but before they sinned there were no harmful mutations.
>> 
>> More seriously, the Pharoahs seemed to have gone through quite a few
>> generations of brother-sister unions while still producing viable
>> offspring.
>> 
>> Highly inbred strains of animals like rats are very widely used in
>> laboratories, and although they wouldn't survive in the wild they can
>> be quite healthy in laboratory conditions.
>> 
> 
> I'm not sure about the Pharoahs' rate child mortality and birth defects,

Well yes, I chose my word carefully: "viable" doesn't mean healthy and 
free of defects.

In the case of laboratory strains of ratd, I'm sure they didn't just 
choose any pair of albino rats and breed from them but instead bred 
from the lines that survived the early generations in reasonable shape.

However, the wild golden hamsters found in Israel are thought to be 
descendants from a very small family group, and are apparently good at 
surviving. Golden hamsters kept as pets elsewhere have been claimed to 
be descendants of a single pair.

> but there was a break in lineage after King Tut,
> whose offspring didn't last long (5 months and 7 months).
> Tut himself had both the family clubfoot and cleft palate.
> I'd have to do some research to determine how often different branches
> took over in the various dynasties.

On Christmas Day we were watching the whole of a Canadian-American 
series about Tutankhamon. I believe its original title was just "Tut", 
which would have ensured that I wouldn't watch it, but here it was 
called "Toutânkhamon : Le Pharaon maudit". It wasn't very good, but I 
was feeling quite ill on Christmas Day (not from eating too much, 
because we didn't) and it passed the time. It was too much of a modern 
soap opera, but I did wonder how much, if anything, was based on 
historical fact. His club foot wasn't much in evidence, and didn't 
prevent him from playing a very active role in a war.
> 
> The Hawaiian royalty also practiced brother-sister marriage,
> but were reportedly quite aggressive about removing birth defects.
> I don't have any real documentation about that, though.


-- 
athel

Thread

Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 07:07 +0200
  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 22:36 -0800
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 11:53 +0200
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-26 15:21 +0100
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 09:41 -0500
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 14:53 +0000
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 11:16 -0800
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 20:38 +0000
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 12:07 -0800
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 14:30 +1100
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-28 20:28 -0800
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-28 22:17 -0800
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 11:24 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-29 12:35 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 11:51 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-31 18:10 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-31 11:23 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 06:28 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 14:58 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 08:42 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 20:33 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-29 12:38 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 14:30 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 22:37 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-29 14:41 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-29 23:12 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-30 11:47 +1100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-29 17:26 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 20:19 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Will Parsons <varro@nodomain.invalid> - 2015-12-30 02:03 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-29 20:23 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-31 18:24 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-31 10:12 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-31 18:15 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-29 16:50 +0000
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 06:49 -0800
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 11:38 -0800
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 11:40 -0800
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-26 17:10 -0500
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 22:37 +0000
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-27 12:02 +0100
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter RH Draney <dadoctah@cox.net> - 2015-12-27 04:59 -0700
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Charles Bishop <ctbishop@earthlink.net> - 2015-12-27 07:11 -0800
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-27 16:27 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-27 18:01 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2015-12-27 18:51 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-27 17:16 -0330
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2015-12-27 21:03 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-27 19:46 -0330
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 15:32 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2015-12-28 20:20 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) - 2015-12-27 19:00 -0600
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-27 20:10 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-28 08:52 -0330
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) - 2015-12-28 18:09 -0600
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 23:37 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <mail@peterduncanson.net> - 2015-12-28 11:45 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-28 17:47 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 12:31 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-28 22:26 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 14:52 +1100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-28 19:42 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 12:06 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-28 21:13 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 12:20 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-28 21:16 +0000
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-28 22:41 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-28 14:25 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-28 15:17 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter snidely.too@gmail.com - 2015-12-28 19:14 -0800
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-29 08:13 +0100
                Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 14:49 +1100
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-27 02:38 +0200
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter John Dawkins <artfldodgr@aol.com> - 2015-12-26 12:45 -0800
  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-12-26 12:06 +0000
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 20:05 +0200
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <mail@peterduncanson.net> - 2015-12-26 21:22 +0000
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> - 2015-12-27 12:11 +0100
  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 05:29 -0800
  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Doug Chadduck <dchadduck@comcast.net> - 2015-12-26 08:03 -0800
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 20:09 +0200
  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-26 12:02 -0500
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-26 19:27 +0200
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> - 2015-12-26 12:09 -0800
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 12:23 -0800
    Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 09:04 -0500
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-27 16:56 +0200
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-27 08:18 -0800
      Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-27 10:54 -0500
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> - 2015-12-27 12:32 -0500
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter "Joe Roberts" <shoreheritage@att.net> - 2015-12-27 16:16 -0500
        Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-28 03:22 +0200
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Janet <nobody@home.org> - 2015-12-28 12:40 +0000
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2015-12-28 13:04 -0500
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca> - 2015-12-28 15:49 -0330
            Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-12-29 06:09 +0200
              Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter RH Draney <dadoctah@cox.net> - 2015-12-28 22:51 -0700
          Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2015-12-29 15:14 +1100
  Re: Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-27 08:17 -0800

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