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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #19628
| Date | 2013-02-10 22:06 -1000 |
|---|---|
| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
| Organization | FORTH, Inc. |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: OT: ANS Forth |
| References | (9 earlier) <fbec13db-004e-4455-b68b-28b1669e2310@googlegroups.com> <slrnkhcurr.app.zbigniew2011REMOVE@Tichy.myhome.org> <slrnkhd1pg.cbe.zbigniew2011REMOVE@Tichy.myhome.org> <ubedncGvadPJMYvMnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@supernews.com> <kf9fe1$pbt$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| Message-ID | <dOSdncf2QskRO4XMnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink) |
On 2/10/13 2:52 PM, Ed wrote:
> Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>> On 2/9/13 6:27 AM, Zbiggy wrote:
>>> Actually, on IsForth doc-pages I've found an interesting quote:
>>>
>>> "The ans Forth standard does NOT describe the Forth language but a language
>>> of the same name" (Chuck Moore)
>>>
>>> What was rationale for such statement? Did Mr. Moore say more about this?
>>>
>>
>> Chuck sails under his own flag, so to speak, and has no use for
>> standards. To him, "Forth" is what he's doing right now, which may or
>> may not resemble what he did last year, or what anyone else wants to do.
>> ...
>
> That's a bit rough. Perhaps we can discover what Forth is by looking at what
> has remained constant throughout Chuck's Forths e.g. stack-based RPN
> language, few types, basic constructs, simple compiler, small size, few
> cosmetics, no locals ... and he still likes screens.
I intend no disrespect, or even disapproval. In fact, he's said as much
many times.
Consider your list:
* stack-based RPN language: Linear vs. circular stacks?
* few types: Unlimited types, in fact. That's an asset! Does colorforth
support DOES> ?
* basic constructs: Ah, but which? The list varies dramatically! And
what does OR do? What happened to SWAP?
* simple compiler: In current implementations it's mainly an assembler,
but does complex pre-compilation, so there's no text source.
* small size: Yup, that's consistent. 2Kb kernel in 1973, in 2013 128
words of memory (max 512 instructions) total per node!
* few cosmetics: Fewer every year.
* no locals: Never have been, never will be. I support this 100%, btw.
* still likes screens: But no longer likes printable source
It works for him, and for a number of other people. And the GA144 may be
great for some applications. But a general-purpose language has to scale
from small embedded systems to large PCs to big networks, with multiple
vendors and sources of support. A standard can make this happen; a
design that varies as dramatically as Chuck's current "Forth" cannot
support a stable development environment.
Nothing wrong with continual change and experimentation; as I said,
that's what geniuses do. The good stuff will survive, with luck. But a
broadbased technology needs the stability that a standard provides.
That's not to say that a standardized language is frozen: the standards
bodies (e.g. ANSI, IEEE, ISO) actually *require* standards to be
revisited ever few years. Standards need to evolve, to respond to
changing needs and developments, but the evolution needs to have a wide
base of support, provision for feedback, and input from multiple
developers and users.
Yes, there are some languages and OSs with single "czars". But those
that have survived have benefitted from a leader who can consider these
wider issues and needs, and keep an open ear to user input. Chuck tried
that for a while, but it didn't work for him, so he took a different path.
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
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3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 22:51 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-07 22:08 +0000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:32 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:40 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:06 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:07 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:36 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:46 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 16:38 -1000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 10:22 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-08 10:26 +0000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 12:50 -1000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:15 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-02-08 14:51 -0600
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:02 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:21 -0500
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:30 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:39 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:51 -0500
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 12:28 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-08 12:25 +0000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:04 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-09 15:27 +0000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:36 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 05:01 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 21:58 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:08 -0500
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:11 -0500
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:05 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 08:29 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 18:48 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 17:20 -0500
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 23:32 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 23:57 -0500
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:02 -1000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 02:24 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:58 -1000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:43 +0100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:03 -1000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-10 11:35 +1100
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 23:48 -0800
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:37 +0100
OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 17:27 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:06 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-09 12:26 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 14:38 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 12:52 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-22 09:25 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-10 08:15 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 23:34 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2013-02-11 22:14 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-11 13:34 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-11 11:52 +1100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 17:11 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-10 22:06 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Charles Childers" <crc@retroforth.org> - 2013-02-11 17:17 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-13 11:42 +1100
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-12 16:07 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-15 09:42 +1100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-15 00:16 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-17 16:05 +1100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 04:16 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-17 13:12 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 09:15 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-19 09:35 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 19:25 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 15:35 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:37 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 23:07 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:38 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 08:50 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:44 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 03:41 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 20:00 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-24 13:49 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 15:04 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 14:52 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 23:51 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 16:23 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 03:55 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 13:01 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-22 12:26 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 21:54 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 18:21 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-20 08:45 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-20 11:01 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 11:25 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:22 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 22:50 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:08 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-21 12:42 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:50 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:36 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:32 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:50 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 03:03 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 09:12 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:38 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:01 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-22 00:05 +0200
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:24 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:33 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 13:04 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:41 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:31 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-23 09:15 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:33 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:49 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:35 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:46 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:26 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-24 09:41 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:09 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:37 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:57 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-23 08:47 -1000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:27 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:16 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:36 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-23 16:52 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 12:39 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 16:27 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-23 18:08 -0500
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 02:20 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 20:16 -0800
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:04 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-25 17:12 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:44 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:45 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-24 02:09 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 04:03 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 17:58 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:57 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-02 16:43 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-02 18:14 +0100
Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 13:56 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-24 03:45 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-13 04:12 -0600
Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-13 12:24 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-11 14:41 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-11 19:44 +0000
Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-11 21:14 +0000
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-09 18:14 -0600
Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 00:06 -0500
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