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Re: OT: ANS Forth

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: OT: ANS Forth
Date 2013-02-22 01:27 +0100
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <kg6e1k$91u$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <20130219191650.21147.66122@Nokia-N810-43-7> <20130219214611.21680.52657@Nokia-N810-43-7> <51ef1ca5-e3de-42fd-acbd-289de46a90a6@googlegroups.com> <kg53mm$bf5$1@online.de> <7xa9qx4lmi.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

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Paul Rubin wrote:

> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>> The main problem with instrumentation to C code is that it takes so long
>> to recompile.
> 
> Suspend disbelief and imagine that the recompilation time is zero.
> Unfortunately the problem you're debugging only shows up when the
> program has been running for at least 5 minutes and maybe you have had
> to enter some input or muck with the hardware manually during the 5
> minutes.

Yeah, you can always put up a straw man.  Reality is that the recompilation 
time of a C program is 5 minutes, and the bug shows up almost instantly.  
That's 99% of the cases.  Reality is that recompilation in the C world takes 
longer than getting to the bug.  In the Forth world, it's the other way 
round.  Yeah, you should automate your test cases that trigger the bug, too.

In any case, if anything takes longer than 3 seconds, your flow is broken.  
Your mind wanders off, you play a round of Facebook game in between before 
the compilation finishs (when it takes 5 minutes) or whatever.  Forth style 
debugging is intense work, you don't get any such breaks in the middle of 
coding.  You do your breaks between coding rounds.

http://xkcd.com/303/

These are definitely *not* two Forth programmers at work.

The net2o tests I'm running are written in such a way that they finish in 
the order of 3 seconds (with lower bandwidth, I just transmit less data).  
That's on purpose.

> So you instrument some value X, recompile instantly, run 5
> minutes and see that the traced X now makes you want to know the value
> of Y.  You instrument Y, recompile, repeat for Z, etc.  It seems a lot
> easier to set a breakpoint when the problem happens and then
> interactively probe around the image.

You don't even know before "when the problem happens".  It might happen at 
run 300 of a particular function, and you better save important information 
*before* it goes wrong.

A typical bug situation is that a variable is set to a wrong value, and you 
don't know how it got there and why it was miscalculated.  So what you need 
to do is to observe what's written into the variable.  After you found out 
who's the culprit, you can investigate what's going wrong with the 
calculation there.

The tool I'm using for that is usually Gforth's ~~, it just prints out 
what's on the stack, and where in the sourcecode this print is located.

We have now this ??? breakpoint (which opens up an interactive command line 
when encountered), but I've still not used it, apart from testing it.

> I would have thought this
> interactivity was in the Forth spirit.  There's still some part of the
> picture that I'm missing.

Yes, definitely.  Recompile instantly is part of the interactivity.  It's 
not always entering things on the command line, though that certainly is 
also part of the debugging cycle, especially the early part - when you write 
a new word, you test it that way.

It's not difficult to get a single function to work, the stuff that requires 
more analysis is when serveral things need to play together nicely.  
Sometimes they don't, most times they do.  That's when the C guys already 
went home, and then we have all those crappy software which just works most 
of the time, and "did you try to turn it off and on again" fixes the 
problem.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 22:51 +0100
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-07 22:08 +0000
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:32 -0800
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:40 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:06 -0800
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:07 -0800
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:36 -0800
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:46 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 16:38 -1000
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 10:22 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-08 10:26 +0000
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 12:50 -1000
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:15 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-02-08 14:51 -0600
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:02 +0100
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:21 -0500
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:30 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:39 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:51 -0500
          Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 12:28 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-08 12:25 +0000
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:04 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-09 15:27 +0000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:36 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 05:01 -0800
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 21:58 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:08 -0500
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:11 -0500
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:05 +0100
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 08:29 -0800
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 18:48 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 17:20 -0500
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 23:32 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 23:57 -0500
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:02 -1000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 02:24 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:58 -1000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:43 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:03 -1000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-10 11:35 +1100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 23:48 -0800
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:37 +0100
                OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 17:27 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:06 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-09 12:26 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 14:38 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 12:52 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-22 09:25 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-10 08:15 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 23:34 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2013-02-11 22:14 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-11 13:34 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-11 11:52 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 17:11 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-10 22:06 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Charles Childers" <crc@retroforth.org> - 2013-02-11 17:17 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-13 11:42 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-12 16:07 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-15 09:42 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-15 00:16 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-17 16:05 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 04:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-17 13:12 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 09:15 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-19 09:35 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 19:25 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 15:35 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:37 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 23:07 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:38 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 08:50 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:44 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 03:41 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 20:00 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-24 13:49 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 15:04 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 14:52 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 23:51 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 16:23 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 03:55 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 13:01 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-22 12:26 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 21:54 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 18:21 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-20 08:45 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-20 11:01 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 11:25 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:22 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 22:50 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:08 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-21 12:42 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:50 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:36 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:32 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:50 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 03:03 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 09:12 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:38 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:01 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-22 00:05 +0200
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:24 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:33 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 13:04 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:41 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:31 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-23 09:15 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:33 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:49 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:35 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:46 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:26 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-24 09:41 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:09 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:37 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:57 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-23 08:47 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:27 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:36 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-23 16:52 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 12:39 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 16:27 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-23 18:08 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 02:20 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 20:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:04 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-25 17:12 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:44 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:45 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-24 02:09 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 04:03 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 17:58 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:57 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-02 16:43 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-02 18:14 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 13:56 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-24 03:45 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-13 04:12 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-13 12:24 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-11 14:41 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-11 19:44 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-11 21:14 +0000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-09 18:14 -0600
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 00:06 -0500

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