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| Subject | Re: counting bytes |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| References | (13 earlier) <kfnr3nxh564.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <rnAsx.228181$k44.141483@fx15.iad> <kfnvbd1cwbk.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <g_3vx.30877$uE1.182@fx01.iad> <ln4mkilqo1.fsf@kst-u.example.com> |
| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
| Message-ID | <_Idvx.31081$8Y.16822@fx29.iad> (permalink) |
| Organization | Forte - www.forteinc.com |
| Date | 2015-08-01 20:43 -0400 |
On 8/1/15 4:06 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:
>> On 7/30/15 2:52 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 7/24/15 12:49 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's true, but the Standard also allows extensions. If types
>>>>> narrower than CHAR_BIT bits were provided as an extension,
>>>>> doesn't it seem reasonable to also extend sizeof to give a
>>>>> non-integral value for those types (not to be confused with
>>>>> 'extended integer types', which has a specific meaning)? I don't
>>>>> see any reason why there couldn't be such an extension, provided
>>>>> of course the usual condition about strictly conforming programs
>>>>> holds.
>>>>
>>>> Extension should not change the defined behavior of things and
>>>> MUST NOT change the behavior of a strictly conforming program.
>>>
>>> The presence of undersized types is limited (eg, by needing an
>>> include line like #include <Xstdint.h>) to programs that are
>>> not strictly conforming. So it is guaranteed that the extension
>>> will not change the behavior of any strictly conforming program.
>>>
>>
>> The conversation started with the thought of an implementation, for
>> example, with CHAR_BIT == 16 but still defining a uint8_t, with some
>> sort of "fractional" sizeof value.
>>
>>> As for extensions not changing the defined behavior of things,
>>> I believe the Standard does not require that. But in any case
>>> the extension does not change any behavior for things that were
>>> there without the extension. The behaviors of sizeof, &, and
>>> pointer arithmetic are all exactly the same as they would be
>>> when applied to non-extension types.
>>
>> If extensions are allowed to change the defined behavior of things
>> defined in the standard, (as long as they do not change the behavior of
>> strictly conforming programs) then the standard becomes vacuous.
>>
>> The program:
>>
>> #include <stdio.h>
>>
>> int main() {
>> printf("%zu", sizeof(int));
>> }
>>
>> No longer has a guaranteed meaning, since it is not strictly conforming
>> (being dependent on implantation defined behavior), so thus is subject
>> to being changed by an "extension". Note also, as far as I can see, the
>> standard puts no requirements on the implementation actually documenting
>> its extensions. This effectively renders moot the concept of
>> implementation defined behavior, as once that occurs (so the program
>> isn't strictly conforming) the behavior becomes subject to arbitrary
>> redefinition by an extension.
>
> N1570 4p8:
>
> An implementation shall be accompanied by a document that defines
> all implementation-defined and locale-specific characteristics and
> all extensions.
>
Ok, that means that it needs to document it, but (if the initial
assumption was true), it doesn't limit what it could do.
>> I firmly believe that what is meant by the language on extensions is
>> that an implementation is allowed to define meaning to code that by the
>> standard is a constraint violation or has undefined behavior and define
>> behavior for that code.
>
> Where the standard specifically refers to strictly conforming
> programs, I don't think you can re-interpret that to mean somehting
> else.
>
> But perhaps that's just an additional (and possibly redundant)
> restriction on what extensions can do. Other restrictions are
> imposed by the requirements stated in the entire standard, which
> may not be violated by a conforming implementation whether it has
> extensions or not.
>
> N1570 4p3:
>
> A program that is correct in all other aspects, operating on
> correct data, containing unspecified behavior shall be a correct
> program and act in accordance with 5.1.2.3.
>
> "Correct programs" are a much wider category than "strictly
> conforming programs", and I see no permission for extensions to
> alter their behavior (or rather to extend the range of permissible
> behavior).
Yes, that is why I was showing why requiring defined behavior only to
apply to strictly conforming, and allowing an extension to break such
behavior is incorrect, such as having sizeof a standard defined type
result in a "trap" representation (to justify "funny" math).
I agree that a program that has standard defined behavior needs to have
behavior within the bounds the standard defines (including all allowed
implementation and unspecified but allowed behaviors)
>
>> In doing so, it might omit a "required"
>> diagnostic (because the constraint violation has been replaced with the
>> extension).
>
> I don't believe required diagnostics may be omitted. N1570 5.1.1.3p1
> requires at least one diagnostic message for any translation unit
> that violates a constraint or syntax rule. There's no exception
> for extensions.
I am not as sure about it, but then, the compiler announcing, compiling
program with x extension enable could be considered a sufficient message
(the standard allows implementations to generate any "warnings" it
wants, and doesn't require that such "warnings" be distinguishable from
"diagnostics". QoI will dictate that an implementation should generate a
half way decent error (with location) for anything that could need to be
corrected, but it IS just QoI and not standard required.
I can see someone being able to argue that due to the standard
explicitly allowing some extensions, that a standard conforming
extension that, in effect, loosens a constraint, could justify that
there is cause to not be required to issue a diagnostic for a program
that meets the relaxed constraint (otherwise is its an "extension" but a
lessor thing of just defining undefined behavior which wouldn't need the
extension clause).
>
> Of course a non-conforming compiler (which may be an otherwise
> conforming compiler with or without some particular command-line
> option) is not bound by the standard, and doesn't have to emit
> any diagnostics.
>
> [...]
>
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counting bytes bilsch01 <king621@comcast.net> - 2015-06-06 04:58 -0700
Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-06 13:05 +0100
Re: counting bytes bilsch01 <king621@comcast.net> - 2015-06-06 05:24 -0700
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-06 05:41 -0700
Re: counting bytes Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-06 14:00 +0100
Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-06 13:52 +0100
Re: counting bytes Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-06-06 10:27 -0400
Re: counting bytes jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2015-06-06 22:31 +0000
THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO bilsch01 <king621@comcast.net> - 2015-06-06 23:35 -0700
Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-07 10:08 +0100
Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-07 09:22 -0700
Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-07 18:07 +0100
Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-06-08 04:03 -0700
Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 08:12 -0700
Re: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE INFO Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-07 08:01 -0700
Re: counting bytes gordonb.3gcai@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2015-06-07 05:02 -0500
Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-07 15:32 +0200
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-07 12:48 -0700
Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-07 23:05 +0200
Re: counting bytes Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-07 22:17 +0100
Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-07 23:49 +0200
Re: counting bytes Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-07 23:37 +0100
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 08:25 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 08:21 -0700
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-11 13:54 -0500
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 06:33 -0700
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-20 09:51 -0500
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-24 09:49 -0700
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-24 12:26 -0500
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 11:16 -0700
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-30 23:15 -0500
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:07 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-02 14:31 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-09 05:31 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-09 17:09 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 09:58 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-05 19:29 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-06 14:38 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-06 17:46 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-07 23:50 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-09-06 22:00 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-07 23:24 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-24 20:03 -0400
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-24 22:13 -0500
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 02:22 -0700
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-25 11:39 -0500
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 09:48 -0700
Re: counting bytes Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-25 14:04 -0500
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 14:22 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 11:07 -0400
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-25 12:43 -0400
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 13:32 -0400
Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-25 20:14 +0000
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-25 17:24 -0400
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 14:42 -0700
Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-25 23:02 +0000
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-25 19:17 -0400
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-25 16:37 -0700
Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-26 06:10 +0000
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-26 08:31 -0400
Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 21:32 +0100
Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-31 13:25 +0000
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 11:31 -0400
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-31 11:30 -0700
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 14:29 -0400
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-31 12:14 -0700
Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 17:39 -0700
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-31 23:32 -0400
Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 16:41 -0700
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-01 20:23 -0400
Re: counting bytes Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-31 11:01 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 19:42 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 12:16 -0700
Re: counting bytes Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-07-30 22:04 +0100
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:10 -0700
Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-25 19:10 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-25 22:16 -0400
Re: counting bytes David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-25 19:46 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 11:52 -0700
Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-31 08:51 +0000
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:19 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-01 09:39 -0400
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-01 13:06 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-01 20:43 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-02 06:52 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-02 15:14 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-09 07:54 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-09 16:43 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-05 10:48 -0700
Re: counting bytes Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-11 17:50 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 06:36 -0700
Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-20 15:14 +0000
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-24 09:38 -0700
Re: counting bytes raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-07-25 19:12 +0000
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 12:18 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-11 17:03 -0700
Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-12 00:15 +0000
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-11 17:42 -0700
Re: counting bytes glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-12 02:46 +0000
Re: counting bytes James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-12 12:33 -0400
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 06:48 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-20 11:18 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-24 09:58 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-24 11:14 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-30 11:02 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-30 13:10 -0700
Re: counting bytes Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-01 10:53 -0700
Re: counting bytes Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-07 14:46 -0700
Re: counting bytes David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-08 09:05 +0200
Re: counting bytes Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-06-06 05:06 -0700
Re: counting bytes bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 00:58 +0200
Re: counting bytes bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2015-07-26 01:00 +0200
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