Groups > sci.electronics.design > #518580

Re: really fast buffers

Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: really fast buffers
From	Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
References	(10 earlier) <787c7a2b-c1a9-4330-830b-8ab9a58d30d0@googlegroups.com> <XnsA972E4A74F46Cidtokenpost@69.16.179.22> <ApmdnWalI5KUniTGnZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@supernews.com> <XnsA9739931E279Aidtokenpost@69.16.179.22> <5MOdncypa_5akCTGnZ2dnUU7-LfNnZ2d@supernews.com>
Message-ID	<XnsA973A41E22AFEidtokenpost@69.16.179.22> (permalink)
Organization	http://www.NewsDemon.com
Date	2018-10-06 20:08 +0000

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Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> On 10/6/18 3:03 PM, Steve Wilson wrote:
>> That term always bothered me. Negative input resistance to what? If
>> you look a the base input impedance, it is always positive. 

> No, it isn't.  YCLIU.

A simple LTspice measurement shows the base impedance is always positive.

Can you supply a simple LTspice analysis showing negative input resistance? 

There are many sites using the term negative input resistance. None of them 
explain why adding a resistor in series with the tank kills the 
oscillations.

You still haven't defined negative input resistance with respect to any 
point in the circuit.

>> When the oscillations get going, the transistor is cut off most of the
>> time. Where is the negative input impedance then? 

> Present during the conduction angle. 

LTspice shows the input impedance of the base is positive at the peak of 
the cycle. 

> The amplitude limits where the 
> average gain around a cycle equals unity.

You have just confirmed my positive feedback argument. The loop gain goes 
to unity.

Oscillations cease increasing when they hit a limit, such as base voltage 
above VCC. It can't go any further.

>> The key ingredient is positive feedback. Say the emitter generates a 
>> voltage that is fed into the tank. The capacitive divider generates
>> a voltage on the base that is higher than the emitter. The emitter
>> follower operation means the voltage fed to the capacitive divider is
>> larger than the original. Positive feedback. Oscillations ensue. 

> A Colpitts network is one way of generating a negative input resistance, 
> but it can also happen inside the transistor die.  The B-E capacitance 
> and the 1/f dependence of beta put two lags in the R_E -> R_b 
> transformation, so it comes out negative.

You still haven't defined negative input resistance with respect to what?

You can add external capacitors to form the tank. The result is the same. 
The emitter follower signal is in phase with the signal on the base.

Consider a 74H04 Pierce oscillator with a LC tank feedback. The  input 
impedance of the 74H04 is capacitive. 

By the energy equation, E = (CV^2) / 2, the impedance is always positive. 

Where is the negative input impedance? How do you measure it?

> Cheers
> 
> Phil Hobbs
>

Thread

really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-03 15:03 -0700
  Re: really fast buffers Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2018-10-03 15:23 -0700
    Re: really fast buffers Andy Bennet <andyb@andy.com> - 2018-10-04 08:20 +0100
      Re: really fast buffers Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2018-10-04 08:45 -0700
  Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-03 15:52 -0700
    Re: really fast buffers George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-03 18:08 -0700
      Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-03 20:02 -0700
  Re: really fast buffers bitrex <user@example.net> - 2018-10-03 21:54 -0400
    Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <9fe142ac@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 20:10 -0700
      Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-03 20:40 -0700
        Re: really fast buffers pcdhobbs@gmail.com - 2018-10-04 05:00 -0700
          Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <9fe142ac@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 08:39 -0700
            Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-04 12:38 -0400
              Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <9fe142ac@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 14:35 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-04 18:27 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-05 03:21 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-05 10:38 -0400
            Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-04 11:50 -0700
              Re: really fast buffers Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2018-10-05 09:26 +1000
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-04 17:09 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-05 03:12 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-05 14:18 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-05 23:42 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-06 14:41 -0400
              Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-05 03:09 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-05 10:40 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-05 11:06 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-05 19:16 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-05 14:26 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-05 18:36 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-05 19:22 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-06 02:28 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-06 06:03 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <9fe142ac@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 23:41 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-06 08:12 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-06 14:46 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-06 19:03 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-06 15:32 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-06 20:08 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-06 22:19 +0200
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-06 21:02 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-06 16:57 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers krw@notreal.com - 2018-10-06 22:30 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-07 04:30 +0200
                Re: really fast buffers <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-07 07:15 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-07 08:24 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-07 18:51 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-08 08:16 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2018-10-07 07:19 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-10 00:38 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 03:02 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-10 04:07 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-10 11:28 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-11 22:06 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-12 00:08 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-13 22:29 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-14 00:30 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-15 19:38 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-15 20:55 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-14 04:31 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-14 07:29 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-15 19:42 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-15 20:57 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers krw@notreal.com - 2018-10-16 17:38 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 19:37 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-16 19:40 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-15 19:40 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-11 22:04 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-12 08:02 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-10 14:06 +0200
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-10 08:31 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-11 01:49 +0200
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-10 17:41 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers "John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 20:53 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-11 05:47 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-11 12:35 +0200
                Re: really fast buffers George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-06 12:39 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-06 20:11 +0000
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-08 20:26 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-06 14:45 -0400
                Re: really fast buffers George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-06 12:46 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-08 21:00 -0700
                Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-09 07:11 +0200
                Re: really fast buffers Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2018-10-09 23:20 +1100
                Re: really fast buffers Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2018-10-09 15:17 +0200
          Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-04 09:18 -0700
            Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-04 12:39 -0400
              Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-04 11:51 -0700
        Re: really fast buffers Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2018-10-08 13:19 +0200
          Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-08 08:52 -0700
  Re: really fast buffers whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 11:57 -0700
  Re: really fast buffers David Nadlinger <david@klickverbot.at> - 2018-10-04 23:05 +0100
    Re: really fast buffers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-04 17:23 -0700
      Re: really fast buffers Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2018-10-05 11:26 +0200
        Re: really fast buffers Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-05 10:44 -0400

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