Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion

From	Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion
Date	2025-03-09 17:20 +0100
Message-ID	<KorxD-4P9D-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 2025-03-09 at 15:58 +0100, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>> Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Hi,
>> > 
>> > On Sun, 2025-03-09 at 14:19 +0100, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>> > > Our experience seems to differ, I now run Trisquel and Guix on many of
>> > > my home and machines and servers.  For my uses they all work without
>> > > non-free firmware.  You have to be careful about what hardware you buy,
>> > > and chose your use-cases.  And, yes, I use modern hardware -- i9-14900K
>> > > on desktop, i7 1260P and Ultra 155H in my two most used laptops,
>> > > ARS-111M-NR and Talos II on the server side, as well as a bunch of aging
>> > > Dell R630's.
>> > 
>> > This class of hardware *requires* non-free firmware. Lots of it, at
>> > every system layer.
>> 
>> Agreed.
>
> So we agree that pretty much all hardware requires non-free firmware
> these days.

Right, in the sense that they embed non-free software in the hardware.

None of those machines require them to be loaded by me as a user for
them to be useful to me.

This distinction is important to me.

>> However none of that hardware require me to load non-free
>> firmware from my operating system, which is my point.  That situation is
>> sufficient for me to accept to use the hardware and install an operating
>> system built without non-free software on it.
>
> What is the point of this then?

For me there are several reasons for wanting this, which ought to be
understandable for anyone reading this thread.  The supply-chain
security trust concern of non-free firmware is a hot topic right now.

It is fine to disagree that these are concerns worthy spending time on
within the Debian project, which is my perception of the vote outcome.

/Simon

Thread

  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 19:50 +0100
  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 20:10 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 21:10 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-08 22:10 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 23:20 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 00:50 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2025-03-09 13:40 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 14:30 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 15:10 +0100
            Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 16:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 23:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 11:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: Salsa pipeline limit Peter B <peter@pblackman.plus.com> - 2025-03-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2025-03-10 16:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 09:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-10 18:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 16:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-11 16:50 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 01:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 08:20 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 23:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 19:40 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 10:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 14:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-03-10 18:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 09:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 10:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-08 21:20 +0100

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