Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion

From	Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion
Date	2025-03-09 14:30 +0100
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Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> writes:

> On 08.03.25 21:09, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>> I read this outcome as fairly clear message that, no, Debian does not
>> want to provide a second set of installer images, and is not interested
>> in contributions to make them.
>
> Another way to look at this outcome, and the one I personally prefer
> by a wide margin, is that it'd be very cool to have them, but at this
> time their utility is … questionable, given that I personally own zero
> (out of umpteen) computers that would work with such an image.
>
> Not my NAS, not my router, not my laptop, not the Raspberry Pi that's
> controlling my home's heating system. Or the other Pi behind the TV;
> said TV is a far worse problem from a free software PoV than a few
> blobs of firmware, but I digress.
>
> So why should a GR compel us to build a second set of images which
> most people cannot use anyway?
>
> On the other hand, if you want to spend some time building those
> images, fine, go ahead; if and when those images are actually usable
> for a relevant subset of machines out there, *then* we can might want
> to revise our decision.

It will always be possible to find machines where fully free installer
images cannot run on.  This was the case 30 years ago and most likely it
will be the case in 30 years.  It seems the disagreement is if that fact
should influence Debian's decisions on what to provide to its users.  It
used to be "no", but now it is "yes" which is a bit ironic since I find
it easier to find suitable hardware today than it was 30 years ago.

Our experience seems to differ, I now run Trisquel and Guix on many of
my home and machines and servers.  For my uses they all work without
non-free firmware.  You have to be careful about what hardware you buy,
and chose your use-cases.  And, yes, I use modern hardware -- i9-14900K
on desktop, i7 1260P and Ultra 155H in my two most used laptops,
ARS-111M-NR and Talos II on the server side, as well as a bunch of aging
Dell R630's.

I fully understand if people who work on debian-installer and installer
images don't want to spend time on supporting fully free images.  I
don't envy that task, and many thanks for what has been achieved!  My
request is not so much about asking them to break their shoulders with
more heavy lifting, but for the project as a whole to not drive away
folks with statements of the effect that a fully free Debian is no
longer a project goal.  My perception is that people are not ready to
reconsider their positions, and that the vote gave a clear message, but
I may be wrong.

/Simon

Thread

  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 19:50 +0100
  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 20:10 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 21:10 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-08 22:10 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 23:20 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 00:50 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2025-03-09 13:40 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 14:30 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 15:10 +0100
            Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 16:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 23:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 11:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: Salsa pipeline limit Peter B <peter@pblackman.plus.com> - 2025-03-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2025-03-10 16:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 09:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-10 18:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 16:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-11 16:50 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 01:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 08:20 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 23:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 19:40 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 10:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 14:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-03-10 18:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 09:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 10:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-08 21:20 +0100

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