Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion

From	Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel, linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion
Date	2025-03-07 19:50 +0100
Message-ID	<KnKVI-4mEi-3@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<KnKVI-4mEi-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <KnK9j-4m3r-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <KnKM2-4mAk-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	Debian

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On Friday, March 7, 2025 11:33:53 AM MST Simon Josefsson wrote:
> pandya@disroot.org writes:
> > I urge Debian to rethink its decision to officially include non-free
> > firmware and correct the social contract. Instead of making non-free
> > firmware the default, Debian should ensure that users consciously
> > choose to install it while being made aware of the implications.
> 
> I agree and would personally come back to use Debian on some of my
> laptops if there was a supported way to install Debian from official
> installer images that did not promote non-free software by including
> firmware on them.
> 
> The recent AMD Microcode vulnerability is a good case-study on the
> dangers of permitting non-free code to run on your CPU:
> 
> https://bughunters.google.com/blog/5424842357473280/zen-and-the-art-of-microco
> de-hacking
> 
> There is no way for me as a user to audit that the Debian installer
> images is not including vulnerable microcode, since source code for the
> firmware is not available.
> 
> My perception is that the Debian developer community rejected this, and
> I'm not sure people are ready to reconsider just yet (the trend seems to
> be the opposite way).  Fortunately there are good libre alternatives in
> Trisquel and Guix available for recommendation meanwhile.

In the original GR, one of the options that lost was for Debian to host two sets of installer 
images, one with non-free firmware and one without, and for users to be able to make an 
informed decision before downloading the installer.

https://www.debian.org/vote/2022/vote_003#textc

This option did not prevail in the vote, but it would have been my preferred choice (I was 
not a Debian Developer at the time and so did not vote, but I did follow the discussion).

As mentioned above, I don’t think most people’s feelings have changed enough to warrant 
reopening this discussion, but I can imagine the day in the future where Debian moves 
towards this option.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

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  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 19:50 +0100
  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 20:10 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 21:10 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-08 22:10 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 23:20 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 00:50 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2025-03-09 13:40 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 14:30 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 15:10 +0100
            Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 16:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 23:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 11:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: Salsa pipeline limit Peter B <peter@pblackman.plus.com> - 2025-03-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2025-03-10 16:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 09:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-10 18:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 16:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-11 16:50 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 01:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 08:20 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 23:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 19:40 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 10:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 14:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-03-10 18:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 09:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 10:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-08 21:20 +0100

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