Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.devel > #111398

Re: finally end single-person maintainership

From Wookey <wookey@wookware.org>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: finally end single-person maintainership
Date 2024-04-09 19:00 +0200
Message-ID <IrmZb-5a2d-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <IqBnz-4GBp-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqBnz-4GBp-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqBnz-4GBp-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqHCG-4K8L-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqWBH-4Tsm-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization Wookware

Show all headers | View raw

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] - view raw

On 2024-04-08 21:44 +0900, Simon Richter wrote:

> Testing a package requires me to
> commit everything into git first, so I have to remember to squash all these
> commits later.

Right - this was (one of the) main thing(s) that annoyed me enough to
just go back to the non-git based workflow. I want to make changes and
try them. I don't want to have to commit every damn time - it's not
done yet - I'll commit it after I'm satisfied that it works. But I
don't know that until I've made a whole set of changes and it builds.

So now I've got a pile of changes which should really be separate
commits and logically separate things often affect the same files, and
even the same lines, so really I need to commit some chunks and not
others and tidy it all up. Yes this makes a nice set of commits but
it's _so_ much work in comparison to just editing the damn files, and
then effectively doing one fat 'commit' when I dupload. Often
something ends up stalled for weeks or months or years because I've
got some chunks in the wrong places and sorting it out is painful, so
I go do something else and lose all my state. You all know how that
goes...

Sometimes git is useful - I do use it quite intensively for things
where it actually helps (complicated cave survey datasets with
hundreds of entangled commits that need re-ordering). For the vast
majority of my debian packaging it's just makework.

I realise this (like my previous message) will result in a load of
people telling me git _is_ better and I'm just doing it wrong, or
should learn better tools. And they may even be right, (and I will
probably learn some things from this thread), but I don't believe the
goal we agree on (fixing other people's packages should be culturally
accepted) _requires_ this change in tooling (which is a heavy cost for
at least some of us).

The point here is that 'requiring salsa' is actually code for 'no,
you can't just use the tarball-based VCS any more - you have to use
git'.  Removing that interface is a very big deal - it has served
quite well for 30 years. Yes it old-fashioned and crufty and
(presumably) only a minority still use it as the primary interface,
but any GR on this should acknowledge what we are requiring of people
still using it, not just frame this as 'and add salsa'. It's more
fundamental than that (or I am misunderstanding)..

Also what do you git people do to replace uscan? Currently I go to my
existing version, or a newly-acquired apt get or dget source. I do
'uscan' and if there is a new upstream version I have a nice separate
directly that is easy to dirdiff (then fixup any packaging and
dupload). If there isn't I can move on. 

git world seems to make this way more complicated. I have to set up
two different repos - one for salsa one for upstream, then pull them,
maybe into different branches, and fight the diff config to let me
dirdiff two different commits. And the upstream pull will always pull
changes, not just only do it is there is an actual release (tag).

None of that feels like an improvement over 'uscan'. One word for the
standard process of updating to a new version. And if the patches
still apply it's probably all done (I always do a meld review too to
see what changed).

And I do just prefer having two directories rather than multiple
version on top of each other. My simple brain finds it a lot easier to
keep track of a version directory to diff between, rather than finding
the right runes to get git to give meld faked-up directories pointing
at revisions or branches.

If someone can make a tool so that this workflow still works, but a
copy gets dumped into salsa, then I don't mind this new
requirement. But otherwise it seems like a big imposition.

I do understand the argument that lots of different workflows adds
friction. But I'm just still using what used to be _the_ standard one
(insofar as we ever had such a thing). Putting everything in salsa/git
doesn't standardise workflows in itself. I think Ian/Sean identified 12
different git-based methods in their dgit review.

Josch's suggestion that just recording the workflow in metadata would
be useful is a good one. Then at least you know what other maintainers
are doing. And dgit's approach of unifying the archive representation
and the git representation is definitely progress in the right
direction. I was very sad to find that it didn't help us 'tarball
people' directly at all (except I guess to reduce exactly this
pressure to stop doing it and use git).

So why mandate salsa rather than make dgit more official? That lets
the people that want to use git use it for everything - even the
packages that were just uploaded as tarballs. And explicitly _doesn't_
remove the archive VCS interface. And it supports all the git-based
workflows. (someone should probably tell IWJ this conversation is
occuring as he's taken a bit intererest in it, but no longer reads
debian-devel). Does than not solve a good chunk of this 'make it easy
to fix other packages using your standard tools' desire?

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/

Back to linux.debian.devel | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:10 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2024-04-07 16:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-05-20 22:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-21 12:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 16:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 18:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:30 +0200
            broad goals (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-21 16:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-22 15:30 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2024-05-22 08:40 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 09:00 +0200
              Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 10:20 +0200
            Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person maintainership) Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-07 22:50 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-04-07 23:10 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 04:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Undef <debian-devel@undef.tools> - 2024-04-08 08:00 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 14:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 15:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 15:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 16:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-09 16:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 19:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jose-Luis Rivas" <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-09 20:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-04-09 21:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 11:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-12 13:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Mike Gabriel <mike.gabriel@das-netzwerkteam.de> - 2024-04-12 11:30 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-12 15:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-14 02:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 22:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-14 10:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-09 21:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:10 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:50 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:30 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 23:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 17:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 18:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 19:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-04-13 11:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-13 10:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-07 23:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-07 23:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 23:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 01:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:50 +0200
            Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 05:30 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 09:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 10:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Mathias Behrle <mbehrle@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 11:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 11:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 22:00 +0200
                Re: dgit view of packages' history Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 12:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 21:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 23:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 00:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 04:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 17:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 14:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 15:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-21 15:00 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 18:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 05:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 09:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 12:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 22:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 01:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-04-14 15:50 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 13:40 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 21:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 04:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 13:10 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-04-08 12:30 +0200

csiph-web