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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #111361

Re: finally end single-person maintainership

From Wookey <wookey@wookware.org>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: finally end single-person maintainership
Date 2024-04-07 22:50 +0200
Message-ID <IqHCG-4K8L-13@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <IqhoR-4tU4-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqBnz-4GBp-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqBnz-4GBp-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqBnz-4GBp-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <IqBnz-4GBp-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization Wookware

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On 2024-04-07 16:04 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Am Sun, Apr 07, 2024 at 03:31:43PM +0200 schrieb Wouter Verhelst:
> > [Feel free to quote any part of this email which I wrote outside of this
> > mailinglist]
>
> OK, moving the discussion to debian-devel where it should belong.

Good plan.

> > Debian packages need to be well maintained. In some cases, having
> > multiple maintainers on a package improves the resulting quality of
> > packages. But in some other cases, it does not;
<snip example>

> > I am all for reducing the barrier to doing NMUs. Let's look at
> > that; it's ridiculous that we need to ask permission to help
> > someone else with maintaining packages if it's clear that they can
> > use it. Debian as a whole is a team, and we maintain the
> > distribution together. So when I do an NMU for your stuff, I'm
> > here to help. You should be happy when I'm offering to help; and
> > that's even enshrined in the code of conduct:

> > [...] offers for help should be seen in the context of our shared
> > goal of improving Debian

> > The fact that a package is listed as maintained by a person rather
> > than a team does not mean the person is the only person who is
> > responsible for that package. Debian as a whole is. And the
> > release team is, in the context of deciding what happens with a
> > package that has outstanding RC bugs. And the QA team is, when
> > they run full-archive test rebuilds for new things. And our users
> > are, when they file bugs.

So I agree with everything Wouter said in this mail. I'm keen on
changing the _culture_ to make it easier to just fix things.

But Andreas seems to have taken this idea of 'we should make it easier
to help people maintain packages', and conflated it with 'everyone has
to use salsa' and 'everything should be team maintained'.

I think that's a mistake, and I'm not a fan. Because so far as I can
tell 'use salsa' actually means 'maintain your packages in git'. So
far as I can see it is not possible to use our existing 'uscan, patch,
sbuild, dupload' type workflows with Salsa. And that's why I'm not
using it, and don't want to be made to use it.

But I am _not_ against people helping me fix my stuff - I'm on the
'just NMU my packages - I won't bite' list.

As I said elsewhere:
For me Salsa is just one more thing to deal with. It is useful if you
need to share a package _before_ it is uploaded, but mostly it's just
a load of extra stuff I didn't want or need (git, web-interfaces,
certificates). And when I _do_ have to deal with it it takes a lot of
extra time and effort I would prefer to have spent elsewhere.

I have a workflow I am quite happy with (uscan, meld, quilt, sbuild,
dupload). I've tried various fancy new things (salsa, git, dgit) but
mostly I've found they got in the way (and delayed uploads/wasted
time) rather than made my life easier, so I keep going back to the old
way because it just works.

I don't mind what other people do, but I worry that conversations like
this seem to take the new thing as so self-evidently better that
no-one can reasonably complain about them being made a
requirement. Well, we don't all think it's better, and I wouldn't
enjoy seeing 'packages must be in Salsa' made a requirement, for
example.

Dgit almost solves this problem but is backwards from my POV. It lets
the git people pretend that they still use quilt and tarballs so the
interface remains compatible (excellent). But it doesn't let the
tarball people expose an interface to keep the git people happy (SFAIK
- you can't do a dgit upload unless you have a git repo) which is a
pity - I'd be fine doing doing 'dgit upload' instead of 'dupload' for
compatibility purposes.

> > If there are stupid barriers to helping people out by doing NMUs or
> > taking over packages, then by all means let's break down those barriers.

Right, but this is (or should be) quite separate from 'make everyone
use git/salsa, i.e. stop them using the existing workflows'.

If 'use salsa' means that when I do 'dupload' a copy ends up in salsa
too, and when I do 'dget' it actually gets the dsc+tarball from salsa
then that's fine. But if it means 'your package is a git repo, you
have to use git to work with it', then no, I strongly object. I don't
want to change all my workflows and tools.

Perhaps there is some tool I am not aware of that can solve this
problem? Like I say, dgit is so close, but exactly the opposite of
what I need.

> > But let's not try to "fix" a problem by introducing a rule that is, at
> > best, affecting something only very weakly related to the problem that
> > we are trying to solve.
>
> I would be happy to talk about rules that might help solving problems
> (as well as droping rules that are creating barriers).

Me too. Please let us improve the culture around NMUs, collaboration and fixes
without making people (OK, duffers like me) change all their tooling.

I am all for more Matrix over IRC though - that's a genuine
improvement (and they are easy to bridge).

Wookey
--
Principal hats:  Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/

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Thread

Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:10 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2024-04-07 16:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-05-20 22:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-21 12:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 16:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 18:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:30 +0200
            broad goals (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-21 16:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-22 15:30 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2024-05-22 08:40 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 09:00 +0200
              Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 10:20 +0200
            Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person maintainership) Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-07 22:50 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-04-07 23:10 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 04:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Undef <debian-devel@undef.tools> - 2024-04-08 08:00 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 14:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 15:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 15:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 16:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-09 16:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 19:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jose-Luis Rivas" <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-09 20:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-04-09 21:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 11:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-12 13:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Mike Gabriel <mike.gabriel@das-netzwerkteam.de> - 2024-04-12 11:30 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-12 15:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-14 02:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 22:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-14 10:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-09 21:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:10 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:50 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:30 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 23:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 17:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 18:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 19:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-04-13 11:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-13 10:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-07 23:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-07 23:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 23:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 01:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:50 +0200
            Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 05:30 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 09:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 10:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Mathias Behrle <mbehrle@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 11:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 11:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 22:00 +0200
                Re: dgit view of packages' history Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 12:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 21:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 23:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 00:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 04:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 17:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 14:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 15:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-21 15:00 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 18:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 05:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 09:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 12:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 22:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 01:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-04-14 15:50 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 13:40 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 21:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 04:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 13:10 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-04-08 12:30 +0200

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