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Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership)

From Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership)
Date 2024-05-21 13:50 +0200
Message-ID <IGwad-eQ7w-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <IroHD-5b6E-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <IFFpf-ekg2-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IFIZP-emxa-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IFUeB-etdc-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IGrDz-eNoz-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
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Hi,

On 5/21/24 15:54, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote:

>> The Debian archive itself is a VCS, so git-maintained packaging is also a
>> duplication, and keeping the official VCS and git synchronized is causing
>> additional work for developers, which is why people are opposed to having it
>> mandated.

> The Debian archive itself is a *bad* and *poor* VCS. It should be obvious
> in which areas it's poor, and it's bad e.g. because force pushes are
> enabled, the history is periodically truncated (though there is no easy
> way to get it anyway) etc.

All of these things are *also* explicit features. We need a way to 
unpublish things, and mirrors only want to keep a shallow subset.

Representing the Debian archive in git would probably look like a 
massive amount of submodules, because that's the only way to represent 
state across multiple projects without extending it -- and extending is 
a big no-no, because then we'd lose all the forge support. Submodules 
cannot represent the pristine-tar branch though.

> It makes sense that some people want to replace it with a good VCS, but I
> agree that adding a good VCS only gives us two VCSes because replacing
> will never happen.

There are two axes here -- "good" and "fits the use case."

What I'm arguing is that git does not fit our use case, despite being 
good, because it is designed for something else. We can make it fit our 
use case by wrapping it, but then we have a choice between a thin veneer 
that breaks easily as people use git commands inside a source tree, when 
they should only be using gbp commands, or a completely opaque wrapper 
that loses us all the git integration from third-party tools like forges.

Because git treats packaging metadata as data, no correctness of 
metadata is enforced at this level. We could add this in the form of 
upload hooks, but then people would start complaining that they want to 
use the tools like they want. They would be wrong, but that is what 
happens with leaky abstractions.

This is the exact opposite of the mandatory-debhelper debate: requiring 
declarative packaging (and therefore calcifying all custom sequences 
into debhelper plugins) is precisely the opposite of "using git because 
it is familiar" -- the benefit of using the abstraction comes from 
denying access to the layer below and therefore hiding its complexity.

    Simon

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Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:10 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2024-04-07 16:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-05-20 22:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-21 12:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 16:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 18:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:30 +0200
            broad goals (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-21 16:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-22 15:30 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2024-05-22 08:40 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 09:00 +0200
              Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 10:20 +0200
            Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person maintainership) Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-07 22:50 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-04-07 23:10 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 04:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Undef <debian-devel@undef.tools> - 2024-04-08 08:00 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 14:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 15:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 15:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 16:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-09 16:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 19:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jose-Luis Rivas" <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-09 20:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-04-09 21:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 11:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-12 13:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Mike Gabriel <mike.gabriel@das-netzwerkteam.de> - 2024-04-12 11:30 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-12 15:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-14 02:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 22:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-14 10:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-09 21:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:10 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:50 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:30 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 23:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 17:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 18:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 19:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-04-13 11:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-13 10:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-07 23:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-07 23:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 23:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 01:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:50 +0200
            Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 05:30 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 09:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 10:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Mathias Behrle <mbehrle@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 11:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 11:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 22:00 +0200
                Re: dgit view of packages' history Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 12:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 21:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 23:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 00:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 04:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 17:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 14:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 15:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-21 15:00 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 18:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 05:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 09:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 12:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 22:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 01:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-04-14 15:50 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 13:40 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 21:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 04:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 13:10 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-04-08 12:30 +0200

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