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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #111795

Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership)

From Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership)
Date 2024-05-19 09:20 +0200
Message-ID <IFIZP-emxa-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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Quoting Otto Kekäläinen (2024-05-19 05:25:10)
> In a recent long thread on debian-devel you had somewhat negative
> sentiments towards the usefulness of Salsa. I do see you doing good
> technical work for Debian and recently a MR from Bill too, so I was
> thinking that maybe you will change your mind when you read more
> in-depth arguments. This is my attempt to have you think about Salsa
> in a new light:
> 
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 11:41, Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> wrote:
> > Having a repository on salsa or even "packaging team" does not prevent
> > a lack of maintainer, so this is not relevant.
> > Without a maintainer, no contribution will be merged in any case.
> 
> Consider this Merge Request to fix debbugs builds immediately, and to
> include Salsa-CI to keep the build from regressing again:
> https://salsa.debian.org/debbugs-team/debbugs/-/merge_requests/19
> 
> 1. If the package was not on git and Salsa, I would have no way to see
> what the maintainers have been doing in the years 2018-2023 (Debian
> repos had last upload in 2018)

With git (or another VCS) but *without Salsa, you would certainly not be
blind to existing development.

I agree with striving towards VCS tracking of all code in Debian, and
striving towards the use of a single VCS, and I think it is reasonable
to separate the discussion about that from the discussion about the
relevancy of Salsa.


> 2. If the package was not on Salsa, and had the MR feature active, I
> would not be able to submit a MR to fix the issues. Now the MR is up
> there, and anybody can review and comment it - thus we are not even
> dependent on the original maintainers alone.

With git but without Salsa, you would post a patch to Debbugs, that
would be up there for anybody to review and comment on.

Sure, you would not be able to specifically use a Gitlab routine without
having a Gitlab instance to do it on.  And reviewers and commenters
would need to be bothered with using email, which is different but not
inherently worse than having to be bothered with using Gitlab UIs.

Did you also post your MR as a patch in Debbugs?


> 3. The UI is easy and useful. I invite you to read my MR and add your
> review. I made have some extra instructions to make this very
> welcoming for people who do not "like" Salsa/GitLab and might feel
> that something is unintuitive

The UI of my email program is easy and useful.

You don't need to agree with me, you can pick another email system that
is more to your liking.  It is much harder with Gitlab to provide room
for different personal ways of working.  Please note, that I am here,
like yourself, not talking about different ways of structuring code in a
VCS, but about how the UI affects how you personally are able to
interact.

You and I quite likely use different text editor, and different email
application, and possibly also different web browser.  That affects how
easy and useful the personal end of collaboration is. The collective end
of collaboration must involve how (if at all) code is tracked in a VCS,
but it need not dictate UI at all.


> 4. If you don't want to use the web UI, you can also download my patch
> https://salsa.debian.org/debbugs-team/debbugs/-/merge_requests/19.patch
> and review by email. Or you can click in the UI once to subscribe the
> MR and then continue review/comments by email.

If you don't want to use a command-line or a scripted or a GUI-based
email application for receiving patches shared at Debbugs, you can use a
web-based email application - locally hosted or through a provider.

I already subscribe to Debbugs for the packages and teams I am most
interested in tracking contributions for.


> Personally I fully agree with the people stating that "Salsa is the
> best thing in Debian in the past 20 years". So far everyone I talked
> to who initially had reservations regarding using Salsa have started
> liking it after they learned a bit more how it works, and have seen
> things like Salsa-CI in action saving the Debian archive from needless
> widespread failures.

Debian is *not* helped by spreading issue tracking across multiple
independent data and communication networks.

My concern about Gitlab is not its *additions* to existing services, but
its *duplications* of core services already in Debian.

Please, let us separately discuss if we should...

 * mandate VCS-tracking
 * mandate the use of one specific VCS
 * mandate one specific VCS workflow
 * mandate collaborative packaging
 * mandate project-wide issue tracking
 * mandate a single project-wide issue-tracker

...instead of lumping all those discussions into a discussion of ease of
user interface for a single catch-all code forge that maybe make all those
other complications go away by affecting all those questions and that way
implicitly provides *some* answer to them all.

Personally, my current opinion on each of the above is this:

 * mandate VCS-tracking
   * Yes
 * mandate the use of one specific VCS
   * Yes: git
 * mandate one specific VCS workflow
   * Not yet, but require unusual workflow flagged and documented
 * mandate collaborative packaging
   * Not yet, but 
 * mandate project-wide issue tracking
   * Yes: personal/team issues like WNPP work are project issues
 * mandate a single project-wide issue-tracker
   * Yes: Debbugs (for now: open to switch but not to duplicate)


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
 * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:10 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2024-04-07 16:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-07 16:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-05-20 22:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-21 12:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 16:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 18:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:30 +0200
            broad goals (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-21 16:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 00:40 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-05-22 15:30 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) PICCA Frederic-Emmanuel <frederic-emmanuel.picca@synchrotron-soleil.fr> - 2024-05-22 08:40 +0200
            Re: Documenting packaging workflows Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 09:00 +0200
              Re: Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person  maintainership) Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-05-22 10:20 +0200
            Documenting packaging workflows (was: finally end single-person maintainership) Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 01:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-22 11:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-05-22 07:20 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-07 22:50 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-04-07 23:10 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 04:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Undef <debian-devel@undef.tools> - 2024-04-08 08:00 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 14:50 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 15:00 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Julien Puydt <julien.puydt@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 15:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 16:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-09 16:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Wookey <wookey@wookware.org> - 2024-04-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 19:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jose-Luis Rivas" <ghostbar@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:30 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-09 20:40 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-04-09 21:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 11:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-04-12 13:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Mike Gabriel <mike.gabriel@das-netzwerkteam.de> - 2024-04-12 11:30 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-12 15:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-14 02:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 22:00 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-14 10:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-09 21:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 15:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:10 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 03:50 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 12:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 04:30 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 23:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 07:00 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-04-12 17:20 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 18:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 19:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-04-13 11:20 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 12:20 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2024-04-13 10:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-04-13 10:40 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2024-04-10 22:50 +0200
  Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-07 23:20 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Gioele Barabucci <gioele@svario.it> - 2024-04-07 23:40 +0200
      Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-08 23:50 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:10 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:30 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 01:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 20:50 +0200
            Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 05:30 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 09:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 10:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 10:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Mathias Behrle <mbehrle@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 11:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 11:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Paul Gevers <elbrus@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 22:00 +0200
                Re: dgit view of packages' history Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 12:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 21:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end single-person maintainership) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-05-19 23:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 00:40 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 04:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2024-05-21 13:10 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 17:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 09:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 13:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 14:00 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 15:30 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-05-21 15:00 +0200
              Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-19 18:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 05:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 09:50 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-20 12:20 +0200
                Re: Salsa - best thing in Debian in recent years? (Re: finally end  single-person maintainership) Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2024-05-21 22:10 +0200
        Re: finally end single-person maintainership Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2024-04-09 00:20 +0200
          Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-04-12 01:00 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-04-14 15:50 +0200
            Re: finally end single-person maintainership Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 13:40 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 21:40 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 04:10 +0200
                Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-23 13:10 +0200
              Re: finally end single-person maintainership Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2024-05-22 14:30 +0200
    Re: finally end single-person maintainership Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2024-04-08 12:30 +0200

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